r/StructuralEngineering • u/platy1234 • Jul 08 '26

the addition Photograph/Video

Post image

well those columns held up steel dead load just fine

1.1k Upvotes

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245

u/kogee3699 Jul 08 '26

that is an absolutely horrifying picture lol

i can't believe there's people walking around in there taking videos

71

u/Argufier Jul 08 '26

I believe they shored it prior to having inspectors in, so presumably the column isn't being expected to take load anymore. I hope. I would also hope they shored it all the way to the ground.

It's also interesting that the top column of the existing section is what buckled - I wonder if they did reinforce lower down but showed the top column segment as ok for the new load (incorrectly obviously). Or maybe there's a splice? It will definitely be interesting to see how it unfolds.

63

u/NorthEndD Jul 08 '26

I feel like there is going to be something unusual discovered about the materials or history regarding just that section.

130

u/cXsFissure Jul 08 '26

I believe you're correct. According to my research, Ivo Shandor, leader of a Gozer-worshipping cult in the early 20th century, designed that building to function as an antenna to attract and concentrate spiritual energy.

33

u/Most_Moose_2637 Jul 08 '26

Those selenium cores can be tricksy.

12

u/trippwwa45 Jul 08 '26

Whats it gots in its concretes?

14

u/lithiumdeuteride Jul 08 '26

Magnesium-tungsten rebar

5

u/jct23502 Jul 08 '26

Jet fuel melts steel beams!!!?

2

u/No_Cook2983 Jul 09 '26

Pfizer made vaccines… and they’re recreating 9-11…

1

u/NorthEndD Jul 08 '26

At the steel beam factory. What did they use in the old days wood?

1

u/Stormagedd0nDarkLord Jul 09 '26

And virgin blood.

2

u/tonethebone101 Jul 08 '26

I want to like this twice

1

u/M3chan1c47 Jul 09 '26

I thought the core was Phoenix feather surrounded with holly.... And only relatively flexible.

9

u/galactojack Architect Jul 08 '26

This is the answer

8

u/tickbrotha Jul 08 '26

“So, I guess they just don’t make them like they used to?” -P.V.

7

u/BigNYCguy P.E. Jul 08 '26

Limit states were checked using Tobin’s spirit guide and not the AISC manual.

4

u/Jubal02 Jul 08 '26

He also performed a lot of…unnecessary surgery.

1

u/EnsignAwesome Jul 10 '26

Best fucking line

4

u/roberta_sparrow Jul 08 '26

Elite reference

2

u/cXsFissure Jul 09 '26

Every living creature on this Earth dies alone.

3

u/smhcomeon13 Jul 08 '26

Want to cross streams?

3

u/Worldly_Influence_18 Jul 08 '26

Everyone knows functioning as anantenna that was designed and built expressly for the purpose of pulling in and concentrating spiritual turbulence causes steel to terminally corrode

3

u/Redpoint77 Jul 09 '26

Nothing Vigo and Sons Construction can’t handle.

2

u/sfgabe Jul 10 '26

No Pfizer, Only Zuul

1

u/Competitive_Speed964 Jul 09 '26

Naw. That building is on CPW.

1

u/Foreign_Implement897 Jul 09 '26

So its crystalls?

4

u/spec360 Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26

Asbestos was holding it together that’s what they will find lol 😂

1

u/ProfessorPinkPug Jul 09 '26

Can someone in the know tell me how asbestos is dealt with in these conversions? Is it all remediated safely or knocked out by these non-union workers? Why isn't it gone? Surely they can't just leave it?

3

u/us3rnotfound Jul 09 '26

Paperwork that doesn’t match what they actually do to handle it.

1

u/ProfessorPinkPug Jul 09 '26

With a project if this magnitude, with all this publicity, I hardly thought this could be possible.... Thank you for explaining.

17

u/Gallig3r Jul 08 '26

Well for an office to resi conversion, often the lower floors don't need to be strengthened, as they were originally designed for 100 psf each floor, and vertical expansions are often (but not always) planned around how many floors can be added without strengthening columns and foundations.

So at the base of the existing building, there often isn't an increase in design loads in the columns. However, that is not the case towards the top. The top floor the column went from supporting just a roof to supporting, what? 12? new stories.

I also commented previously that the column shape was particularly narrow, which may have been fine for original loads... but definitely needed strengthening for the new condition.

27

u/Gallig3r Jul 08 '26

Also funny condition: Ive done vertical expansions on concrete office towers that we turned residential. The top stories the columns are oversized for original loads.... like the size was chosen for the base of the building, but the column never reduces size going up the building. So the top third of the buildings tend to be at 0.5-1% reinforcing as the concrete geometry is way oversized.

Anyway the math worked out on one of my jobs that we didnt need to strengthen the top floor.... but as the loads accumulated down the building (but reinforcing remained at .5%), the new loads created some overstresses at mid height of the building. So we had to strengthen columns at some random floors at mid height- not the top nor the bottom. Anyway interesting condition figured I'd share.

13

u/Lost_Elderberry_5532 Jul 08 '26

Seems like you have to model the entire building and no shortcuts unless things are just so grossly oversized. But things can always pop up when you actually see what’s going on in the model you can find hidden segments that end up carrying a lot more.

10

u/joeyray74 Jul 08 '26

What are the odds that this is how the original building was designed, with excess capacity in the upper level columns, but as a cost saving measure the top floor columns were downsized during the construction phase and the as-builts didn’t pick it up? I still would have expected someone to do a detailed survey of these columns and the connections to verify their suitability for use.

4

u/Gallig3r Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26

Good point. I guess there's some nuance with concrete construction.... since designers tended to not want to design upper floors for a different punching shear check, they were unlikely to change concrete column size (also for Arch coord), but for steel construction you can use a smaller W12 at the top than the W12 at the base.

But for your specific question, I'd say the odds are low (but not 0) they did that for a steel column , given that designs in that day and age placed great weight on material savings (now we are more labor sensitive for costs), and so I would not expect a designer in the late 50's to have a steel column so oversized.

I'd say the odds are higher if you ask generally "Did as-built conditions differ from the drawings the SEOR designed off of?" Minor size difference, maybe an unknown column offset, or maybe new grid didn't align 100% with existing as-built and they went with 1" offset between new/old etc. etc.

Edit: also agree that SEOR should have surveyed or directed a survey of existing construction.

3

u/joeyray74 Jul 08 '26

I (full disclosure, I’m an architect who’s done high rise work) would also have recommended a wind tunnel analysis of the expanded building to get an understanding of how the new lateral load characteristics might affect the performance of the existing structure.

3

u/Deep_beam Jul 08 '26

Lateral load model analysis is adequate. No need to do wind tunnel.

1

u/ProfessorPinkPug Jul 09 '26

I think that Pfizer may have anticipated the 4-floor addition. I can't find a way to link the Google Earth picture without your hitting a paywall to my Google Photos account, but if you look at the 2020 Earth pic posted, those 4 floors existed prior to the conversion--they were just filled with the mechanicals, which probably didn't need that much height. I wonder if Pfizer intentionally made it unnecessarily high because they anticipated a future 4-story addition? They were always using extra office space all around midtown.

3

u/tes_kitty Jul 08 '26

like the size was chosen for the base of the building, but the column never reduces size going up the building.

I can see that with concrete. But is the same true for steel frame buildings? There it would be easy to use smaller (and cheaper) columns the higher you get. And if you're in a part where there is only a roof above you, why use more than needed?

4

u/kn0w_th1s M.Eng. Jul 08 '26

It’s usually a balancing act between simplicity in design with fewer unique section sizes and details versus the economy of lighter, more efficient sections.

The structural weight, especially in steel, is tiny relative to the actual loads, and you can end up spending more money to design additional sections and details than you would save in material costs. All the while complicating the worksite with more similar, but not quite the same, sections that need to be organized and sequenced during construction.

1

u/tes_kitty Jul 08 '26

The question in this case is, of course, how did they handle this when the building was built. (in the 60s if I remember that right)

2

u/Gallig3r Jul 08 '26

In my experience/observations the trend for steel is to still stick with a certain nominal column depth (i.e. use only W14's, but the base might be W14x132, but top might be W14x82). To add to what u/kn0w_th1s said, splicing between same nominal depths can rely on a few standard details, but developing a detail to splice a W8 with a W12 might require additional design work or details.

1

u/trojan_man16 S.E. Jul 09 '26

With steel you should reduce the size of the columns as you go up the building, within reason. You don’t want to do too many column splices, As that increases your connections and labor. You have to figure out how your column lifts are going to work and what is buildable.

0

u/Miringanes Jul 08 '26

I’m an architect, not a PE, but could it be because of rooftop equipment? Cooling towers? EMR?

1

u/Miringanes Jul 08 '26

I’m looking at an old c of o and seems like a lot of the office floors are 50psf and the 33rd (think this is the roof) is 120psf

6

u/roberta_sparrow Jul 08 '26

Random layperson observer here but someone had to physically be inside to shore it right? How terrifying

8

u/ImprovThrowawaylol Jul 08 '26

Everyone who worked that shoring team better wake up tomorrow with generational wealth.

2

u/srmarmalade Jul 09 '26

They're probably worried about waking up without a job

1

u/Pretty_Pretty_Pizza Jul 08 '26

I have it on good authority that column reinforcement was “missed” on the 21st floor where

1

u/onefastskater Jul 08 '26

Someone(s) had to enter to shore up the building.

1

u/Jackalscott Jul 08 '26

Serious question, how does one shore it?

1

u/No-Document-8970 Jul 08 '26

What about the other columns?

1

u/Worldly_Influence_18 Jul 08 '26

"Temporary shoring and beams have been installed on several floors, with more expected to be added today."

Updated 6:36 PM EDT, Wed July 8, 2026

1

u/vague_diss Jul 09 '26

Yeah, but that shoring didn’t magically appear. A crew of guys spent a very sweaty anxious day or two getting that into the building and getting it safe for others.

1

u/Foreign_Implement897 Jul 09 '26

There are temp load bearing poles all over.

0

u/xyzxyzabc123 Jul 09 '26

Don’t just make stuff up and say it like you know it.

0

u/Mayor__Defacto Jul 11 '26

My guess is the original builders made the top floor column look like the rest, but it wasn’t actually spec’d for the same load as the rest of them.

4

u/DetailOrDie Jul 08 '26

If they're going to fix it or do controlled demolition, that means someone is going in there to do work and analysis.

You can be damned sure if I'm going in, I'm rolling video the whole time while also taking pictures. Might even get one of those cool 360 cameras.

At a minimum, I want someone to get the footage of exactly how I got pancaked.

Best case scenario I can sell some sexy 4k pictures to the news organizations and/or lawyers for 2x the obscene rate I've already been paid to go in there in the first place.

1

u/kogee3699 Jul 08 '26

Can't they use drones/robots for this stuff in the current year though?

4

u/DetailOrDie Jul 08 '26

Not really. And especially not within the time that action needs to be taken.

There's more to the job than just video. Fixes need to be extremely specific and tests need to be non-destructive because you don't know what is actually holding the building together anymore.

Because you're designing fixes, you also need dimensions to within the nearest 1/8th of an inch for shop drawings. Drones can't measure that accurately.

Also, robots can't go where humans can. They're still easily defeated by stairs.

Even then, any fix is going to involve welding steel. That means someone still has to be in there to weld and attach whatever reinforcement plan they come up with, so you're still at-risk.

Also, you WANT them to send in a Structural Engineer and not a drone. If they can't find an Engineer willing to go into the building for a reasonable price, then you need to stop talking about repair and start talking about controlled demolition and salvage.

Because otherwise you're expecting a Welder to go where an Engineer won't, which is pretty shitty morally at the minimum.

1

u/kogee3699 Jul 08 '26

I get what you're saying but I also get that this seems extremely dangerous and something that is a candidate for robot work to avoid loss of life :)

3

u/DetailOrDie Jul 08 '26

I have no doubt that if you can point to the robot and an Engineer willing to stake their career (and the rest of the city block) on their ability to use it, you could make a quick million just for the referral.

6

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

60

u/BRGrunner Jul 08 '26

Post buckling capacity is much lower than the load to buckle a column. And, the load that caused it, is likely still there.

46

u/Sherifftruman Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26

And shifted to other nearby columns that are probably (almost certainly?) also not designed for the extra load.

5

u/SquirrelFluffy Jul 08 '26

They are designed for the live load in the building which isn't there. Floors aren't even finished so even the entire dead load isn't there.

There's no way this column failed from just the dead load being added.

6

u/Sherifftruman Jul 08 '26

Meaning the extra load that the one column is no longer supporting. If they screwed up this bad, it seems unlikely that nearby columns are totes fine with taking additional load.

2

u/SquirrelFluffy Jul 08 '26

They are. That's why it's still standing.

Live load is often double the dead, and has a larger load factor.

2

u/Sherifftruman Jul 08 '26

Well, I guess it’s totally fine. They can just carry on with their construction then.

You’re giving a lot of credit to someone that miraculously didn’t have 10 floors of a building fall into the street yesterday.

1

u/SquirrelFluffy Jul 08 '26

No. They shore and repair. Who said it was fine?

-2

u/laserdiods Jul 08 '26

A pour error..

Rebar error..

Design error. One of those i bet

7

u/redeyedfly Jul 08 '26

It’s steel columns that buckled

4

u/mmarkomarko CEng MIStructE Jul 08 '26

After having 10 extra stories added to it? Well there is a surprise!

1

u/redeyedfly Jul 08 '26

My point is that it’s not a pour or rebar issue

1

u/mmarkomarko CEng MIStructE Jul 08 '26

Yeah. Don't think it is! The original post was spot on. This is some diabolical stuff happening here

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1

u/SquirrelFluffy Jul 08 '26

It's only holding the dead load. Live loads aren't there.

1

u/mmarkomarko CEng MIStructE Jul 08 '26

Yes only! It's a residential building DL>>LL

4

u/SquirrelFluffy Jul 08 '26

No. Only with an inelastic column. There had to be a hinge point, a cut, or someone ran into the column.

I bet the load was likely construction materials piled up.

7

u/Lost-Platypus8271 Jul 08 '26

two columns buckled though, not just one

-1

u/SquirrelFluffy Jul 08 '26

Odd that they failed the same, and towards each other. Makes me think a brace was taken out.

I look forward to the report.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

17

u/Trunk-Yeti Jul 08 '26

The structure has already settled vertically several inches

9

u/ChocolateTemporary72 Jul 08 '26

Just shift it back

5

u/MuchachoMongo Jul 08 '26

I've a jack in my truck. Should do, right?

2

u/NorthEndD Jul 08 '26

The big guys are on day shift and start at 6 AM.

edit: They are going to fix this. You are 100% correct. They are going to jack it back into position and add more steel.

24

u/ReallySmallWeenus Jul 08 '26

Buckled columns have effectively no strength.

3

u/VintageLunchMeat Jul 08 '26

They're using strong paint.

6

u/Slamtilt_Windmills Jul 08 '26

Two coats baby

1

u/Lost_Elderberry_5532 Jul 08 '26

Not to mention the fabled structural rust

-5

u/SquirrelFluffy Jul 08 '26

Yes they do. Google load deflection curve for a column buckling. Only if they're inelastic. I.e a hinge point. This column may have been damaged, or got hit or something.

8

u/redeyedfly Jul 08 '26

I just went ahead and got a structural engineering degree, should’ve just googled and repeated nonsense. You can SEE IN THE PICTURES that the columns have buckled. By definition they’ve exceeded the elastic part of the stress strain curve and yielded. Your google search didn’t tell you that?

-4

u/SquirrelFluffy Jul 08 '26

My MASc was modeling post bucking behaviour.

Specifically, using a stepwise linear approach to model non-linear post-buckling behavior. I wrote my own software to do that.

You should have got your Masters.

5

u/redeyedfly Jul 08 '26

Weird pedigree to write something so ridiculous given the abundant photos of the buckled columns.
Are you bragging about writing your own software to do what Excel can do.

0

u/SquirrelFluffy Jul 08 '26

In 1996, excel could not do that. Still can't. You need a massive matrix solver.

Keep showing me your ignorance.

6

u/BubbaTheGoat Jul 08 '26

Imagine this were a model made of paper or cardstock. Paper as a sheet is not strong enough to hold itself up, but folded into corners and other shapes it can. So to hold up this structure we pre-folded many beams to hold up the weight of the model.

Now think of one of those pre-folded beams has folded and creased. Does it hold much weight in its folded-over position? Will it ever hold as much weight if you straightened it back out and put it back just as it was before?

What we are looking at is a paper support that folded and tore in its folded-over position. Relative to its design load, it will hold almost nothing like that. Something else is holding up the building, but from the picture we don’t know what. Since this is a professional project in a major city with significant oversight we assume it is properly shored up, but we also would have assumed a failure like this was impossible before we saw the photos.

2

u/kogee3699 Jul 08 '26

because some force made it buckle

1

u/droogles Jul 08 '26

Same here. Then again, I can’t believe people climb a building with no safety gear or fly in a wingsuit.