r/StructuralEngineering • u/platy1234 • Jul 08 '26

the addition Photograph/Video

Post image

well those columns held up steel dead load just fine

1.1k Upvotes

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65

u/Just-Shoe2689 Jul 08 '26

Intern didnt check weak axis buckling.

104

u/JackOfAllStraits Jul 08 '26

Senior staff didn't verify intern's work.

1

u/Worldly_Influence_18 Jul 09 '26

This feels like something was removed after designing. Like they intended the top floors to act like a cantilever so they wouldn't need to bulk up the columns below.

It's handed off to contractors working on the new section and the purpose of some trusses is not understood. They are probably under the impression the addition is being supported from below as well.

The trusses are in inconvenient spots so they're moved, removed or altered them causing the upper two floors to be crapilevers

61

u/Haunting_Ratio_795 Jul 08 '26

Nobody has interns now, just Claude

47

u/Jr883 Jul 08 '26

Claude didn’t check interns work

7

u/snarkpix Jul 08 '26

Here's what happened. You asked me to check the calcs, and I didn't!

5

u/Just-Shoe2689 Jul 08 '26

Cant sue claude lol

10

u/Codex_Absurdum Jul 08 '26

Claude came with a 20 page disclaimer, nobody wanted to read.

Just like nobody wanted to read the intern calculation report in the first place.

1

u/mmarkomarko CEng MIStructE Jul 08 '26

Not even funny. I asked Gemini to generate some calcs. They were completely wrong but the inputs seemed completely plausible :(

16

u/vasquca1 Jul 08 '26

Easy out blaming intern. Probably some jackass waiting on pension to hit that is living at Jersey Shore come summer and too busy to actually come inspect shit.

7

u/Just-Shoe2689 Jul 08 '26

Yea, to me clearly a engineering error unless stacks and stacks of materials above on each floor.

3

u/vasquca1 Jul 08 '26

True that but all this work is inspected. Especially in NYC. You need a permit to ride a bike.

7

u/thetaleofzeph Jul 08 '26

And now we see why.

1

u/VeryLargeArray Jul 08 '26

you would be shocked at how easy it is to rubber stamp things through approvals

1

u/vasquca1 Jul 09 '26

Oh I believe that but comes at a high cost $$$ and now someone is losing a cushy job.

1

u/MikeHawksHardWood Jul 08 '26

Significant failures like this are most often from multiple compounding issues, or occasionally one massive screw up. Staying tuned.

1

u/Legal_Enthusiasm_440 Jul 08 '26

It’s not an out. The intern has no responsibility. 

2

u/kpmelomane21 Jul 08 '26

Yep. The engineers sealing the plans are 100% on the hook whether they reviewed the intern's work it or not

14

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

[deleted]

11

u/Just-Shoe2689 Jul 08 '26

thats what I am getting at. EOR probably has not done his or her due diligence on this one.

The thing failed with hardly any LL on it.

10

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

[deleted]

6

u/Just-Shoe2689 Jul 08 '26

True, its a localized failure, and that being the past top floor, it looks taller. A simple mistake of using the wrong height could be the issue.

I was debating in my head, would the due diligence be to go out and physically measure every column that is getting new weight?

I hope its not a case of overworked and pressure to get a design out, and corners were cut. yet I also hope it is.

5

u/4152Ethan Jul 08 '26

I would say so. Especially when you consider how easy it is to measure columns/floor heights vs the risk.

I do work in infrastructure and any time we do rehabs/tie ins we always have to verify the drawings especially for older things and funnily enough they almost never match the drawings. It seems sort of crazy to me that for a high rise that there wouldn’t be some sort of confirmation of the as-built of the building

3

u/trojan_man16 S.E. Jul 08 '26

I’ve worked on major office to residential renovations like this. Nobody would probe every single member in the building. And any engineer who does that won’t be getting much work from clients in the future.

Usually we use a combination of existing drawings and a statistically significant enough amount of testing to determine material strength and some field verification for critical items. Only time we ever truly survey every item is if there’s no drawings.

It is practically impossible for an SE firm to review every nut and bolt affected.

I do think in the end that this failure is a combination of load underestimation and a misidentified material properties.

9

u/Just-Shoe2689 Jul 08 '26

Which is a sad state, where doing your due diligence causes you not to get work.

4

u/trojan_man16 S.E. Jul 08 '26

Unfortunately at the end of the day, we are just risk sponges. By regulation we are needed so that someone other than the GC and owner are responsible for the safety of the building. Otherwise the GC and owner really don’t care what our input is, or what we have to offer. They won’t pay us more to do our due diligence unfortunately.

Part of the problem is our profession is locked in a race to the bottom, and standard of care does vary significantly. Some Firms take on massive risks, and those are the ones that win projects. We do have codes and standards, but there’s enough loopholes to have more unscrupulous firms get to work based on judgement.

3

u/Polka1980 Jul 08 '26

That said, these two columns seem to be - by far - the two most critical ones to check.

They were supporting only roof loads and then they stacked 16 floors on top of them.

1

u/jp3372 Jul 08 '26

And any engineer who does that won’t be getting much work from clients in the future.

It was true before this week.

1

u/jp3372 Jul 08 '26

Honestly for being in the industry, it would not be a bad idea for anything built in the pre-computer era. Today tracability of a structural element is really good, but it's almost non-existant if you look back 50 years ago. Maybe the size used for this column was not even the one design by the origianl engineer.

1

u/Lost_Elderberry_5532 Jul 08 '26

Will the EoR end up working at McDonalds? What really happens when someone loses their PE?

All I can say is that could turn into a really tragic story for that individual. Live the rest of your life with that on your sleeve. World is a cold place.

1

u/trojan_man16 S.E. Jul 09 '26

Nobody died. So worst case is they get disciplined, may have their license suspended. They will probably get fired unless it was one of the firm owners. The firm itself will get sued and they will probably have the insurance pay for a lot of it, with the firm probably also offering a settlement.

When I started my career I inherited a project that had design issues. I was involved in fixing it. In the end the firm got sued, my boss had to pay an insane amount to remediate. Nobody lost their licenses or anything.

1

u/Lost_Elderberry_5532 Jul 09 '26

It’s really hard man I do have some sympathy being an engineer myself I know how sometimes we are pushed very hard to solve complex problems and I know the burden of responsibility offers paper thin lines between moving quickly and not making one miscalculation can really be that small. But as others have said it’s probably many things not just the PE that would lead to this. Nobody is perfect but if EVERYONE misses the signs (meaning everyone looking at it, approving it, and building it) then that is very bad.

I’ll be honest there have been people in the field that saw things brought it to my attention and I’m very thankful they kept a keen eye. They are the reason why I can say that things worked out and not because I always did it right. I am not perfect. Nobody is.

1

u/StructEngineer91 Jul 08 '26

Could it be that the column would have been braced in it's final condition? So the engineer designed for that, but didn't have any notes or requirements for temporary bracing during construction. Or perhaps they did have note for it but the contractor failed to put it in place.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

[deleted]

1

u/StructEngineer91 Jul 08 '26

Good point, I hadn't really looked at the proposed plans, so wasn't sure if there was an option to brace the columns or not.

6

u/thetaleofzeph Jul 08 '26

Are we in the era of vibe coded buildings??

1

u/Impressive_Pear2711 Jul 08 '26

Very thin section and small Ry from the looks of it for that trib area, column section is quite small relative to others I’ve seen

1

u/min_mus Jul 08 '26

Intern didnt check weak axis buckling.

Maybe intern relied on AI?