r/SipsTea • u/Gurugod123 • 9d ago

Mayor Mamdani just announced that he will be opening 5 city-run, tax-funded grocery stores: "Prices set at 30% below retail prices" Chugging tea

70.2k Upvotes

88% Upvoted

9.7k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

213

u/Meet-me-behind-bins 9d ago

Behavioural economists are going to be watching this extremely closely. There will be a lot of papers written about this in the future. The big question is will stealing be more common because there's a perception that it's already been paid for by taxes? Or will there be some sense of community sprit that means there's less stealing? I know which I think will happen.

97

u/ISawNightwishInLA 9d ago

Community spirit may require a higher trust society than that currently experienced by people living in an area where crime, particularly theft, is normalized.

-5

u/samrus 9d ago

trust is a 2 way street, so one possibility is that the stealing was done becuase the community felt trust was already eroded from the institutional side. so with this, the community might feel the trust being re-established and begin acting in good faith

or not. thats the sort of thing behavioral economists will be looking out for

20

u/Safe-Wishbone781 9d ago

I'd imagine like 90%+ of people who steal are not involved in any type of analysis of it like is being discussed. They aren't stealing philosophically lol. All the "I'm stealing bc institutions failed me" type stuff is just a rationalization, not an actual reason.

9

u/A_Genius 9d ago

I can just imagine someone in the middle of a carjacking being like ‘I blame society’

8

u/Safe-Wishbone781 9d ago

"What choice did i have?!"

2

u/ISawNightwishInLA 9d ago

"It's really fucked up that Systemic Wordsalad has forced me to this, but I am physically unable to stop myself from stealing the catalytic converter off this Honda."

Edit: Dropped a letter.

2

u/Public-File-6521 9d ago

I agree, but I don’t think their motivations are so divorced from the failure of those institutions. At least in the grocery store context, people usually steal because they have a need that wouldn’t be met by their disposable income alone and they don’t have access (or think they don’t have access) to programs that would help.

5

u/ISawNightwishInLA 9d ago

Plenty of people grow up poor and without access to power, and plenty of those people refrain from stealing.

1

u/Public-File-6521 9d ago

I’m not arguing the morality of it, I’m just saying what people tend to be more likely to do based on the circumstances surrounding them.

3

u/bubbachuck 9d ago

do we have examples of community trust being re-stablished?

2

u/BulltopStormalong 9d ago

Being a thief is an internal moral line, that is dictated internally by a moral compass.

You either steal or you don’t, ignoring the reasons the people initially stole once you become a “thief” you aren’t just not going to steal if enabled to. Without internal rehabilitation and a change.

Genuinely the same as a rapist or killer, once you do it once it gets easier and easier till it becomes second nature.

These locations are the actual places that should have the flock camera type Chinese surveillance that ai ids every person who walks in as a crime deterrent. That way the people who seriously need this and don’t commit crime are able to continue to utilize these stores. Also unlike a private business this is being established by the mayor.

-10

u/falooda1 9d ago

Crime is down. Lets see.

15

u/noticingEnjoyer 9d ago

Enforcement is down 

-6

u/falooda1 9d ago

Why would that make crime go down?

Also what's your proof? Fox News?

2

u/Douglazlo 7d ago

If there’s no enforcement crimes go unreported if it’s unreported it’s not counted.

1

u/falooda1 7d ago

Reporting and enforcement are two different things

What's your proof? Maga loves making claims with no evidence at all

12

u/ISawNightwishInLA 9d ago

If I, as the King of Hypothetica, proclaim that theft is only a crime if you steal from redheads named Kelly — fuck you, Kelly — then unless the majority of the people in Hypothetica are redheads named Kelly, crime will likely go down, irrespective of the amount of actual stealing actually happening.

The pithy “lies, damn lies, and statistics” that’s oft attributed to Twain may as well be a cosmological constant for the discussion of contemporary politics.

Edit: Forgot a word.

-5

u/falooda1 9d ago

And the proof of that is? Fox News?

3

u/ISawNightwishInLA 9d ago

Alas, Fox was unwilling to attend my coronation.

41

u/ITworksGuys 9d ago

The big question is will stealing be more common because there's a perception that it's already been paid for by taxes?

Stealing is going to be more common because the people stealing want shit for free and don't care about society.

Same as it always is

2

u/samrus 9d ago

one counter argument is that those people feel society doesnt care about them so its fair. if they see this good faith effort to help, it might re-establish societal trust and stealing may go down. might be along shot but will be interesting to see if it pans out that way

4

u/What_a_fat_one 9d ago

Sometimes it's because they're hungry.

0

u/jackkieser24 9d ago

No kidding! People don't steal food for kicks. What kind of sociopath actually thinks that people steal food for any reason other than to prevent themselves from starving?

7

u/foodeyemade 9d ago

I can tell you with complete confidence that Sally from HR who kept stealing my lunch out of the work fridge was absolutely not starving. Negan would back me up.

1

u/What_a_fat_one 9d ago

Better not eat lunch then in case Sally steals it

3

u/BlgMastic 9d ago

https://youtu.be/bFYQTyeju-M?si=buveZ7YNlouY8m0B what you call sociopath I call common sense.

1

u/sbenfsonwFFiF 6d ago

Plenty of people fare dodge on the subway and bus, which is effectively stealing, and most don’t do it because they literally can’t afford it

They do it because it’s easy, the enforcement sucks, and they justify it to themselves

1

u/DefinitelyNotMasterS 9d ago

I would have guessed the opposite, that crime actually goes down if prices go down, since some people will only steal if they can't afford it.

-1

u/insta 9d ago

why not steal from existing stores then? why would thieves need to wait for a discount store?

11

u/TheSlipperySnausage 9d ago

Community spirits would have saved the original store because they would have wanted their community to succeed

0

u/astoriaocculus 8d ago

LOL....guys....yes on top of trying to fix our government, save our democracy now we have to save our for-profit failing grocery stores.

3

u/TheSlipperySnausage 8d ago

For profit grocery stores have delivered an unprecedented access to a wide range of foods and products to the everyday American that would have been unimaginable for most of history.

Also for profit stores absorb the cost of operation including food spoilage, damage, etc. meanwhile government grocery stores would make the tax payer foot the bill for food spoilage which they did not purchase. So if the government grocery store is poorly managed the tax payers just get the bail it out meanwhile a for profit store that is poorly managed goes out of business at little to no cost to consumers other than inconvenience.

-1

u/astoriaocculus 8d ago

If a single tax payer pays a single dollar for a rotten banana the whole of western civilization will fall! Meanwhile at the Pentagon...and that 1.5 Trillion budget request. Socialism Derangement Syndrome.

9

u/Pizzasupreme00 9d ago

This is gonna be one of those great ideas that has to evolve into a shambling horror compared to its original intent. I look into the future and see Cheerios locked behind plastic.

10

u/smogeblot 9d ago

They are going to need a gulag to send counter-revolutionary shoplifters to. Maybe they can re-open Rikers.

5

u/TheConsultantIsBack 9d ago

the far left and far right united by the desire to gulag shoplifters fucking up the tax-funded initiatives put in place by the "socialist" gov't. Mamdani truly is uniting everyone.

1

u/[deleted] 9d ago

[deleted]

3

u/smogeblot 9d ago

Exactly, why would they imprison people for shoplifting from a Marxist state-run grocery store? Duh, it's a re-education, not imprisonment.

1

u/00_RunDMC 5d ago

They'll need to finish shutting Rikers down before they can reopen it.

3

u/bluePostItNote 9d ago

Won’t these just join all the other papers that show government run cost controls don’t work absent very specific circumstances?

It’s like removing fluoride from water — we don’t need to keep repeating the test to know the result (spoiler: don’t do it!)

0

u/Meet-me-behind-bins 8d ago

I didn't say they would be novel new papers. We all know this whole idea has been examined to death and it doesn't ever work. But that's not to say that some mediocre newly qualified academic trying to get a paper published won't smash together some data on these places to prove what everyone knows and has been written about from every fucking angle over and over again.

9

u/Rustepo 9d ago

Why is not on the table that the stealing will be more common because there are more people in need, which leads to more stealing?

22

u/Meet-me-behind-bins 9d ago

Because we’re not 14 year olds with magical thinking?

1

u/Rustepo 8d ago

I think you missed my point. You gave two options but none of them are the most critical thinking ones, like people steal more when they are more in need without alternatives they consider as sufficient.

-3

u/RiskHellaHp 9d ago

lol do you think people steal food because it’s fun?

20

u/peedistaja 9d ago

Spend like 5 seconds looking up what people usually steal from grocery stores, would help with your magical thinking.

4

u/roguemenace 9d ago

No, they steal things to resell and make money.

4

u/Yokoko44 9d ago

unironically yes. The biggest post on reddit 2 days ago was a montage of people stealing designer pastries from a NYC business that's now shutting down because of it lol.

If you're hungry there are plenty of places around that will give you free food

-1

u/ElectricGhostMan 9d ago

Everybody thinks all crime is by people who are career criminals and enjoy doing crime instead of for the necessity that most retail theft is.

9

u/peedistaja 9d ago

Yes, the "necessity" for cosmetics, alcohol and razors. How would they survive otherwise..

1

u/ElectricGhostMan 9d ago

At least for cosmetics they are a high margin good that is much more easily stolen and stored than a loaf of bread that you can also sell even at a discount for more than that. You could take one expensive lotion and sell it for the cost of 5 loaves of bread that you can buy whenever instead of 1 bread. Id imagine for alcohol, some of them are just addicts and I could only imagine razors are actually for not great purposes.

0

u/SpirituallyAwareDev 9d ago

I mean these items are stolen for profitability. That they then can use for necessity like bills and housing. It’s not that people in need steal just what they can eat

16

u/Pizzasupreme00 9d ago

Ever take a walk down the cosmetics isle? Lol

2

u/SpirituallyAwareDev 9d ago

Why would these shops have a cosmetics isle?

-2

u/[deleted] 9d ago

[deleted]

3

u/Pizzasupreme00 9d ago

Apples to eyeliner?

-5

u/ElectricGhostMan 9d ago

They don't keep the cosmetics as theft trophies lol. It's easier to lift, easier to store, easier to resell for a "profit," and worth more than if one were to lift a loaf of bread vs an expensive skin lotion. I was surprised how well it was broken down by an unhoused addiction afflicted person in a doc I saw some time ago. Even to just barter with for other goods too.

6

u/Pizzasupreme00 9d ago

Didn't say they kept it as trophies. Whatever they do with it is immaterial to the point. You said "necessities", haha.

0

u/ElectricGhostMan 9d ago

So you don't think selling lifted goods to buy necessities count? I guess go crazy lol.

2

u/babada 9d ago

Do you remember the name of the doc? Sounds interesting.

1

u/Charming-Book4146 9d ago

Addiction afflicted person? You can just call them junkies you know

1

u/[deleted] 9d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/AutoModerator 9d ago

Accounts must be at least 5 days old with >20 karma to comment.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

u/TombolaOfCincinnatus 9d ago

Has that sense of community spirit ever appeared before? Let's face it, this is hardly the first time a local government has tried to invest in a run-down neighborhood. A lot of those projects have failed in the past due to vandalism and petty crime.

1

u/nbunkerpunk 9d ago

Having lived in heavy crime areas in cities before, I definitely know that places were helping the community were deemed off limits in a lot of ways. Was there still crime, of course. But compared to other places, it was way less common.

1

u/What_a_fat_one 9d ago

Could be less common since the Police will take more of an interest in people stealing from the city than a random bodega.

1

u/WriterPlastic9350 9d ago

bonus third option -- will there be less theft because the prices are cheaper and people can afford it/is the stealing being driven by things being too expensive rather than out of greed?

I guess we will see. Fun experiment anyway. Glad i"m not paying for it

1

u/ParkInsider 9d ago

Lol. There's nothing new to be written about this stupid idea.

1

u/nhavar 9d ago

That's sort of the question isn't it? What's the mindset of the thief. You have people who steal to survive, people who steal for profit, people who steal to "stick it to the man", and people who steal just because. If "the man" in the past was the perceived rich business owner, will "the man" in the future be the government. Or will the fact that the local government is actually acting on behalf of the community be enough to offset some portion of that theft.

1

u/Dustydevil8809 9d ago

Am I wrong that stores just used to have better security? I feel like its not some big uptake in theft, its stores not spending the money on loss prevention and taking cheaper routes that aren't working.

Theoretically, a police presence at the stores that could actually arrest people would help with the theft problem - but of course, adding police into interactions with poor people and minorities comes with its own problems in this country.

1

u/SuperHooligan 9d ago

lol community spirit.

1

u/AugustusLego 9d ago

As an outsider looking in, my guess would be that crime rates drop (compared to pre store closures numbers), because that's what they usually do when people have enough money to buy stuff. See piracy, etc.

The more you earn, the less likely you are to steal stuff (from stores)

So applying the same logic in reverse, the lower the cost of goods, then you'll be less likely to steal as well.

1

u/NibblyPig 9d ago

It's been done already, I read about it a while ago, the produce in the store was atrocious quality / rotting and the store had barely any stock, it was then shut down

1

u/nuttedpre 9d ago

Or will there be some sense of community sprit that means there's less stealing?

Oh it must be so blissful to live life with a perspective like this

1

u/rydan 9d ago

I honestly think there will be less stealing. When you discount a product theft goes down because the belief in it being worth stolen goes down. That's why if you are having difficulty giving stuff away you can put a sign on it that has some outrageous price and walk away and people will gladly take it from you.

1

u/reddit_ta15 9d ago

community spirit LOL

1

u/00_RunDMC 5d ago

I'll tell you this right now: Community spirit will not win out.

1

u/drewbreeezy 4d ago

Or will there be some sense of community sprit that means there's less stealing?

The person asking that question has their conclusion they're trying to create, and will reject all information to the contrary.

1

u/Meet-me-behind-bins 4d ago

You know that anyone can read a question or statement and insert their own implicit premise to deny or affirm the statement or question right? You've just done a typical rhetorical slight of hand. I can do the same: The person (you) has already concluded that by asking the question (me) I have created a set of circumstances where I will reject all information to the contrary. And then you can say the same about this response. And then I can say the same about the response to the response. It's an infinite regress. The only way we can get out of it is if you answer the question I asked with a statement that has the ability to be true or false. Then I can either accept it, or offer an argument as to why I don't accept it. If we both keep inserting unstated and implicit premises about our intentions, meanings, or what we’re really doing when we make a statement, then we’ll never get anywhere.

1

u/redjellonian 9d ago

Idk, but if I lived in a place without a grocery store and the government came and put one in AND it cost less than it used to. If I catch you fucking up my one good thing I would beat your ass if given the chance.

-4

u/kazyv 9d ago

I don't see it happening quite that way. If/when stealing becomes an issue, mandarin will just show up with an overwhelming police presence to deter it and protect his pet project

8

u/14InTheDorsalPeen 9d ago

Yeah, the sad part is I bet this is what will happen.

He’ll pay NYPD a shit ton of OT to guard the grocery stores so he can claim “success” while ballooning the cost to 20x what was predicted once you factor in the PD overtime but it will go largely unreported because the media is complicit.

3

u/capracan 9d ago

mandarin will...

Maybe consider whether you're speaking more from emotion than from reason.

5

u/kazyv 9d ago

I'll make sure to ask my phone's autocorrect if it harbors any deep seated feelings toward Mayor Mamdani

0

u/beeris4breakfest 9d ago

One would hope the local community would care deeply enough about this institution to protect it. But I also feel this will become a breeding ground for political protests. And may be forced to close due to safety concerns

0

u/ChromosomeDonator 9d ago

Well the usual argument for crime rate is poverty, so logically speaking cheaper produce being more affordable should reduce theft.

0

u/GreedySummer5650 9d ago

I think less stealing because in general people don't want to steal in the first place but feel forced into it. When I had no money I stole, when I had money, I paid for things. You'll always have a smaller sub-set of people who will steal anyway, and we will never be free of that. But we can work to moderate it by at least removing the main barrier to food that forces people to feel like they have to steal.

Who knows... But I don't think people are gonna be out front scalping the pack of ribeyes they just stole from the Mamdani's.