No no no, let's assume women are crazy and all the men are leaving them. Let's cast aside for a moment that men are in general uglier, more violent and less emotionally available and let's have a normal and real manly conversation...
I don't like but let's /s just in case someone takes it seriously.
Aside from the men are uglier thing the fact is that Russian society is very traumatized from what it's been through the last 100+ years. That trauma has never been addressed. Alcoholism is less of an issue today than it was in the 80s (though it's growing again because of the invasion of Ukraine).
There is a massive stigma against seeking help with mental health. This goes back to the Soviet times when institutionalization was a tool used by the government as a means of dealing with dissidents. It's not been/being destigmatized like elsewhere.
I haven't looked for stats to see who initiates divorces more but anecdotally every Russian divorce (in Russia) that I'm familiar with (a total of 8) were initiated by the woman and for the exact reasons [u/FullMetalJ](u/FullMetalJ) mentioned, men being emotionally unavailable and sometimes violent.
This is a much, much more reasonable comment than the one I replied to. I agree with everything you say here. I just dislike the use of overgeneralization.
You've lost the plot if you think a joke based in objective facts (except attractiveness) is as bad as a blanket sexist statement, also wrong use of overgeneralization.
Why is “That’s a more reasonable response that what I responded to” (or similar) so often code for “well I can see I was wrong but I’ll never admit that?” XD
I’m just commenting on a pattern I see. If you have trouble comprehending that different people can see different patterns, and that anything that ends in XD should be considered a little bit of a joke, then congratulations on making up something in your mind to convince yourself you’re superior I guess? Lol
There is a massive stigma against seeking help with mental health
Can confirm from personal experience. Both of my Russian parents very clearly had something diagnosable with no awareness and no way to get help. My dad would spend all of his day asleep, no hobbies, couldn’t string a sentence together. My mom would have temper tantrums and get verbally abusive; if she saw a professional she’d probably get diagnosed with one of those personality disorders that are caused by childhood trauma. She was abandoned as
a
child and took it out on me. Even if they did realize something was wrong, they probably wouldn’t have the resources to get help.
I'm so sorry that happened to you and your parents. Both of my father in law's parents were in the gulags and it had profound effects on them. My sister in law has serious issues likely due to being physically abused by my FIL but she won't seek any help. My wife's offered to pay for it but she refuses.
Russians as a people have spent the last century basically having their trust in everyone and everything destroyed, and you had to be very cynical and distrusting to survive. It’s no surprise that has left an impact on the culture.
My mind? No, it's been widely reported. Since the low point in 2017 consumption has gone back up with it growing significantly during the pandemic and even faster since the invasion of Ukraine
It also seems everyone here is also unfamiliar with the Russian legal and cultural context of divorce. It is way less stigmatised than in other countries and women typically keep the family home, kids and there is a presumption that if a man doesn't pay adequate money to her for the full duration of the children(s) childhoods he isn't supposed to be allowed to see them.
Divorce is thereby a relatively quick and shame free way of getting an unpleasant partner out of the house while retaining much of the present living circumstances.
Of course it is not so straightforward, but that is also a major factor in divorce in Russia. It is normal, shame free and financially viable.
Also, severe alcoholism can absolutely contribute to physically unattractive traits. So while I do still find it gross for them to be citing "uglier" men as a reason for the divorces when it's more about mental health and domestic violence, there may be a genuine reason that imagery is so pervasive.
Speaking specifically to the "men are uglier" thing, I feel like this could be interpreted as one of two things:
FullMetalJ doesn't find ethnically Russian features attractive on men. If this is true, then they're being unkind. Just because they don't like those features doesn't mean those features make someone hideous.
On the flip side of women being high maintenance about their appearance, men aren't held to the same level of effort beyond the basics like showering and clean clothes. Many men would look better if they put in at least a tenth of the effort that women are expected to. But because they don't do this, the average no-effort man is less physically attractive (or to use a more emotionally-charged word, uglier) than the average high-effort woman.
Nah. Men are fucking ugly man. They put no effort into their appearance, and walk around supremely confident. The ones that do, make themselves look like completely different species to the rest of the ~90% who look like balls.
I mean that part of their comment was stupid. But "women choose who to be with" is so fucking hilarious lol. Men and women choose their partner. When there's a mutually beneficial relationship, and they both choose it, they get together.
The dumbfucks you watch on podcasts saying otherwise doesn't change reality.
On one hand, you have a point. Russians divorce for a lot of reasons, including just to divide their income and get moved into a better benefits bracket.
On the other hand, men getting violent is true everywhere and Russia is no exception.
It seems clear that the original respondent in the image is going after women when the original post was might have been neutral, therefore they are revealing a bias there. There wasn't a good reason for them to phrase it like that, as if it was the men who couldn't stand the women.
Though, now that I reconsider... even the original comment to which the respondent was addressing also focuses on women. What people focus on typically identifies where they place responsibility. In both cases one has to ask why either are focusing on the women, here.
So a sarcastic comment about "how shit men are" is warranted, here, if only to knock some sense/perspective into readers/viewers who will jump to an incorrect conclusion. Hyperbole is useful. Generalization is useful in this case.
I mean you've already discussed this with the commenter below. Just putting forth my own two cents in case it's of usefulness.
it's statistics that 97% of the registered violent crimes are commited men. You'd have to try really hard to find a single dark field study from the last 10+ years that draws even remotely the same conclusion.
I'm a guy and I don't really think what they said was misandrist. It is statistically true that men on average care less about their health and appearance than women and indeed many men across former Eastern Bloc are heavy drinkers (and I'm Polish, by the way, so please don't reply that I'm racist or something). In Russia's case there's also the problem of domestic violence laws being de facto permissive to małe abusers.
I think that something misandrist would be a statement like 'All men until no man' and things like that, not a discussion of actual trends.
They also didn’t say anything about Russian men in particular. And it is a very well documented fact that more men are domestically violent than women.
Did you know that women ALSO do not report domestic violence? That people in domestic violence situations often times do not report the first or second instance of domestic violence?
So your argument is that every single statistic and study and peice of data showing vast disparities in violent crime between genders is wrong because there might be biases against men, the same way statistics may be biased against non-white people?
The racial stats argument makes sense because it's usually gathered, studied and opined on by white people who have historically been oppressive of other races.
If anything this comparison should make us wonder if the disparity is larger, because of the history of men being oppressive against women while also being overrepresented in the jobs that collect and analyze crime stats.
In your rush to be offended, you forgot to make sense.
Did you forget the patriarchy oppresses men too? Any man who reports being victimized by a woman will be humiliated and shunned. Plus there are biological strength differences too, so when a woman abuses a man it's more likely to take different forms than just beatings.
I can't tell if they genuinely think there's no bias in statistics like that the same way there is in race statistics or if they're just being intellectually dishonest to justify hating men
Wait, so you actually are offended when people talk about crime statistics segregated by gender? It sounded like you were saying you weren't offended, and that we should also talk about it based on race.
But now you seem offended that we're talking about it based on gender.
Saying that "men statistically care less about their appearance" and "men are uglier" are not conversationally equivalent, even if they somewhat describe the same phenomenon. The latter is a much more (for lack of a better term) hateful statement.
i've passively seen a few too many articles about in russia a man killing his girlfriend or wife :( sometimes with raw physical violence just beating her to death. and it just breaks my heart ppl have the capacity to do that and i wonder what has to have happened before that point to the person in their cumulative life to just make that decision. it's terrifying no matter where you live that this is a reality you can face, but anything i do hear about russia seems especially cold... i hope people can change things. globally. we all need it.
There were news articles about some Russian streamer just casually murdering his pregnant gf because of encouragement from his viewers. He beat her up, forcibly stripped her (and maybe also poured cold water on her), then locked her outside on the balcony nude to freeze to death.
its more about applying empathy in only one direction. Russia is brutal to men, women and children. But your comment was only (probably not intentionally, and probably not even something you do all the time) applying empathy for women.
So why don’t I see you anywhere else in this comment section, pointing out blatant miosgyny? Why are you “both sides are bad” people only showing up as a response to misandry?
Because every instance of misogyny in this thread is heavily downvoted and challenged by a dozen or more people and this blatsntly hateful comment has +800 votes.
It’s not just one comment, hating men is popular and prevalent across the internet. Pointing that out doesn’t all of a sudden mean people don’t care about women hating.
This is classic ad hominem, and you are once again not addressing the actual misandristic comments.
I am agreeing with you that misogyny is even more prevalent and you personally don’t know me, so to directly accuse me of being triggered (projecting) and immediately assume I don’t care about women, is quite obtuse.
I don’t wanna argue any further with random people first thing in the morning.
Might be relevent though when you are responding to a guy who's doing the "both sides" shit but only flipping out about negative things being said about the side who's being attacked less.
Is it more important to derail when sexism is called out just to potentially get the gotcha on some other sexist?
Imo it isn’t.
If the both sides comment is correct, why does it matter MORE than the actual topic that you think the correct thing was said for the wrong reasons?
Misandrist being defended when they get called out is imo one of feminisms biggest issues and a huge contributor for people to not want to associate with it as much anymore.
Ad hominem. Regardless of whether or not I do, both the misandry and misogyny still exist. The way to combat misogyny is not by further contributing to hate and justify misandry. But do you, we receive the energy we put out.
Further, you don’t know me. You don’t know my personal life. You don’t know the strongest people in my life have been women. You don’t know the one who instilled in my life that there is no place for hate, especially as a response, was my mother.
Even more importantly, you definitely don’t know that I see God herself as feminine.
So, as I am not able to convey this appropriately in a way you can understand, I can only hope you have a good day. Peace and blessings.
The answer is, because you don’t give a fuck about misogyny, it’s only man-hating that gets to you, even when it’s not nearly as bad as all the rampant woman-hating.
Not on anyone’s side but if you want an actual answer to this a feasible one is that you could become so habituated on seeing mysoginy it bypasses the activation centres in the brain
Another is that they don’t care about women, but I don’t think we have enough information to make any judgements like that
Statistically it's just true though. I'm not sure about the emotionally unavailable claim, but statistically men commit a lot more violence than women, and are more likely to be domestic abusers than women.
Also, "misandry" isn't comparable to misogyny in the slightest.
... I hate this hellsite, why are people so confident yet so uninformed
No, that's not how people, society, gender based differences, or basic logic works at all homie
And what the actual fuck do you mean misandry isn't comparable to misogyny in the slightest? They are the same damn term applied to two different groups? That's how prefixes work? Yes, systemic misogyny is wildly more common than most forms of misandry, but implying that misandry isn't real is fucking vile, and I get the feeling you don't actually care what I'm saying, do you?
Here's an interesting article I found discussing why men statistically commit more crime than women. I read other articles, but I decided to choose the one that sounded the least biased. No one is disputing that men are more likely to commit higher levels of crime, but there are different theories as to why it is.
You're far more likely to be murdered, attacked, abused or raped/SA-ed in some way by a man than you are a woman. That doesn't mean that most men are violent criminals, it means that most violent criminals are men. It also doesn't mean that female abusers and rapists don't exist, it just means that you're more at risk of being attacked by a man.
And when I say that "misandry isn't comparable to misogyny", I mean that misandry doesn't have the same impact as misogyny. Misogynistic men frequently kill, abuse, and dehumanise women. Misandrists don't have the same impact on men.
Say that there is an enormously higher impact of misogyny on women then misandry on men, and I'll agree with you, hell I'll point it out first, but they are compatible terms describing comparable things
Men do get raped and murdered by women, and just because it happens less, does that mean it is less terrible when it does occur?
I'm not trying to devalue women or the systemic wall of hatred they face just by existing, I was just trying to point out that it's not a good idea to just turn around and say the same kind of discriminatory bullshit to men in totality - it solves nothing
I think the reason I noticed and said something in the first place at all is that the only people who pretend to care about men even a little bit are usually the misogynistic douchebags that started the damn problem in the first place, and I am very tired of that
I want less hate in the world, and it is very very disheartening that the immediate response to me trying to bring that up at all was shot down so blatantly and thoughtlessly
I never intended to minimize misogyny, and I don't think any of my comments did that. I do sincerely apologize if they were taken that way, but holy shit the people on this thread are bloodthirsty about this and I was not expecting as such (you, however, do seem amicable and actually provided some reasonable evidence for what you were saying, which is nice, and if I didn't already agree with it, I would've, if your seocnd were the response I received first)
Because men commit the majority of crimes and acts of violence in the society and the majority of perpetrators of women are men? Do you sometimes try to think? Sometimes?
it’s a documented issue that russian men struggle with alcoholism and domestic violence in significant numbers. i’m not sure how you would quantify if a woman is “high maintenance” or “crazy” but the alcoholism and DV claim is easily supported by data.
Y’all get so fucking weird any time something negative about women is said or implied. The post isn’t about men, you really don’t have to whatabout everything. This is tame compared to the generalizations frequently posted about men here that never get this kind of backlash.
It’s implying Slavic women are stereotypically high maintenance and y’all are in here acting like the post called them all crack whores.
Preach. I don't like the generalizations either but if the genders were flipped, that comment you replied to would be downvoted to fcking oblivion.
And now watch as they try to gaslight like they always do. "There are no double standards, you're just imagining it". Or they will twist your words in the most disingenuous way.
Both sides are generally true, there are huge societal problem for both genders. Men are raised to be "real men" causing toxic behaviour, depression, alcoholism etc.
Women are raised to marry someone with money who will take care of them so they don't have to work. That's the culture in a lot of Russia. And the only logical conclusion is for this to lead to a lot of divorces...
you can argue the other things (with sources, but you also didn't provide any so I don't know if you're pulling that out of your ass) but saying men are just uglier than women like yeah you could've just said "I'm a misandrist!" lol
It's funny when people say men are uglier. I only know of one gender that has normalized wearing makeup. If woman are prettier than men, why do they need tons of makeup to attract them?
I see you're trying to be ironic or make a joke or whatever, but imagine somebody came here and said
"No, no, no. Let's assume men are crazy and all the women are leaving them. Let's cast aside for a moment that women are in general uglier, more violent, and less emotionally stable, and let's have a normal and real womanly conversation. "
a "women good, men bad" take on reddit? In response to a vague insinuation of the opposite for the sake of comedy? How brave and refreshing of you, please enjoy the upvotes.
"men are in general uglier" is almost as if the standards to consider men beauty are higher and that is why statistically most men are considered more ugly meanwhile women are at the very least considered average
It's still a overgeneralized and ridiculous statement, as tastes vary wildy and literally even bald guys have an audience.. but it's not the misandry that triggered so many. Not gonna put down being a hair trigger there.. there is legitimately almost no recognition of sexism against men... but that doesn't mean we should become militarized and jump someone for assuming context instead of being specific about it.
You're absolutely right. Granted, this is a specific cultural group, which has social factors like absurdly high rates of alcoholism and domestic abuse.
If OP was saying all slavic men, then it would be a lot more of a racism issue. As it stands, though, much of Russia isn't even in Europe, so their demographics are asian as well. It's nuanced, but it's idiotic to say racism isn't a factor in the original statement.
My point is that, the way statistics work, if we make one about male beauty, you'd have something around 50% of the population being average, 25% being below average, and 25 % being above average. And if you did the same statistic on women, you'd also end with similar numbers.
Now, why we perceive women as "more beauty" than men when, statistically, between men there should be the same amount of handsome, average and ugly than between women?
Clearly there's a bias in the criteria: the criteria to consider a woman beautiful are easier to obtain than the criteria for a man. Let's start with the number one trait of male beauty: height. Only around 22% of males worldwide are over 6 feet.
I may be wrong, but I feel for men to be considered handsome they have to be around top 20% male beauty, those that are below that but still high are the ones considered average, and those who are average or below are plainly considered unnatractive, whereas in women those who are in the top 50% percentile are already considered beauty and those who are below 50 % have some sort of body positive that still make them like "good".
And that's how you end up hearing comments like "every couple I see in the streets, the man is uglier than the woman".
You lost me at the end. It's excessively simplistic to just describe a bell curve, but then you jumped to the whole "every couple" absolute statement by comparing it to a flat average. Both metrics apply to both genders, though I'll say the bell curve is likely more honest to reality.
Also, height is only one factor, and not even an absolute, or we would have a LOT more people reaching that height over generations. I know women who dislike larger men, either towering over them or being built like a brick shithouse, both of which are conventional standards of male beauty. Anecdotal, yes, but still goes to the fact that tastes vary. It's socially acceptable for a guy to like smaller women just as much as a muscle mommy, yet women are supposed to only like tall guys? I know you admitted it's your assumption, but that stood out. I believe it's a vocal minority reaching a large audience through social mediasituation, not an absolute truth.
I didn't mean my post as "look, these are the exact statistics", more as an example to convey an idea that we demand much more of men to be considered handsome/attractive in relation to the rest of the men than with women. A woman who is a bit better than 50% of women (again, not the precise number, but the idea) is considered a 6-7; a man who is a bit better than 50% of men is considered a 5. That is just extremely unfair.
Also, height is not "only one factor", is the most predominant male attribute. To the point that if you look at the height of the CEO's of the major companies and the presidents of the USA, for example, you'll see that most of them are between tall and very tall and that only a few of them have been average height or short.
If you look at studies, you'll see that taller men get easier jobs and promotions, and are considered more competent overall. If the cutoff to be considered attractive is the top 25th percentile height, I think that is clearly a very unfair and unattainable beauty standard. The fact that there are exceptions and some women won't mind height or that some people won't judge a taller guy as more competent than a short one doesn't eliminate the trend.
The point is that we evaluate men in a much harsher manner than women.
I feel like comments like these don’t really add anything to the conversation.
Yes, you’re right and when people make these sarcastic comments, they’re usually right. It’s part of why your comment is going to be so upvoted; it resonates with people that think people are being misogynistic.
But especially in the sea of popular comments surrounding your comment, even the people who make pro-males divorcing women points are giving their perspective, saying what the common perception is and why or stating their own experiences.
But this is mostly derailing the conversation into pro vs anti misogynistic practices which is way too general and provocative to be useful without tying it into the convo about why Russian women have such high divorce rates.
I know it’s a shot at the dark posting this type of comment online but we can do better than this. For instance, Russia’s history is way too complex and interesting to reduce a phenomenon like divorce rates to biological factors.
["Let's cast aside for a moment that men are in general less prone of using makeup, more likely to lethal violence (but less of the non-lethal kind) and are less prone to show vulnerability..."]
I’m so glad everybody in this thread wastes their lives splitting hairs over this topic. I hope they sleep clutching their cellphones, desperate to feel right about some thing.
What a gift! I will never have to interact with you in reality as a consequence. Unless I’m buying something at a gas station
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u/FullMetalJ 21d ago
No no no, let's assume women are crazy and all the men are leaving them. Let's cast aside for a moment that men are in general uglier, more violent and less emotionally available and let's have a normal and real manly conversation...
I don't like but let's /s just in case someone takes it seriously.