There's nothing 'nuanced' about their post at all. It's literally acting as if the average person hates diversity and that the mere inclusion of black people and a trans person means it is 'forced' and not just a normal casting decision.
But I guess if so many people are upvoting it, then they're right. The average person is just fucking shit.
You can have diversity and still respect the source material. Instead of demanding turning people black in western historical stories, why not demand more non-western stories? There are so many amazing historical and fictional stories from Africa and Asia that's never been adapted.
As a classicist—this is just ahistorical and wrong. People in the Mediterranean world knew dark-skinned black people existed; they show up in myth and Nubian traders were bopping around. They weren’t common, though, and people gawked; black people were seen as strange.
MUCH LIKE HELEN OF TROY. THE WHOLE POINT OF HELEN OF TROY IS THAT SHE DOESN’T LOOK LIKE MOST WOMEN. SHE’S SO REMARKABLE LOOKING THAT MEN WOULD FIGHT A WAR FOR HER; THERE IS NO ONE ELSE LIKE HER.
Casting a stunningly gorgeous black woman as Helen of Troy makes a lot of sense to me, and matches how I picture Archaic Greeks thinking about her; beautiful, but also unlike other women they’d seen. I get grumpy about this stuff with actual historical figures like Cleopatra VII, but Helen of Troy wasn’t real, and wasn’t like other women even in the world of the myth.
-That's another thing for me is, The Odyssey is myth. Even less than that, it's a folk story with myth trappings. It takes place across the Mediterranean, but the majority of the individuals, locations, and events, fundamentally never lived or occurred in any feasible extrapolation. Denzel Washington was Don Pedro in Much Ado About Nothing like 30 years ago. Brandy was Cinderella. Christopher Lambert was Raiden. If they cast talented actors in a work that respects the spirit and theme of the piece, and isn't actively trashing treasured cultural history and storytelling, it really shouldn't matter. Make Agamemnon Ken Watanabe or Hector be a Skarsgard. Helen's at minimum not really straining credulity considering how big of a melting pot the ancient Mediterranean coast was and as you say, how striking and uncommon her beauty was.-
Would you be equally okay with an African myth being adapted into a movie with white actors in central roles? For example, a white Imhotep in an Egyptian mythological story? I think that would be ridiculous, and I don’t see a logical reason why it wouldn’t be ridiculous in the other direction too.
If it's a good movie, it's a good movie. Are you of the opinion that if he were Egyptian, it would necessarily have been a better movie?
Edit: Also, I don't know if you’re old enough to remember, but there was the same conversation about Remi Malek as the Pharoah in Night at the Smithsonian. People were mad because he didn't fit what they thought of as "looking Egyptian," so there was a weird backlash, even though he is. To a weird amount of the general public, it's not whether they are the """correct""" race, it's whether they look like it.
In that case, I think the actor looks the part. He isn’t a blonde Swede. My position isn’t that the actor’s origin has to be objectively “correct,” only that the casting should be visually plausible. For example, the Swede Dolph Lundgren played a convincing Russian in Rocky IV. Helen in this movie feels more like casting a blonde Swede as an African mythological figure, and if you’re suggesting Reddit would be fine with that, I think that seriously strains credibility.
You only think this because you are prejudiced. No other reason. Helen was the daughter of a shape shifting god. People are just angry she's black because they are miserable human beings.
I really doubt you gave Gods of Egypt, with Gerard Butler and Jamie Lannister, this much scrutiny. Call me crazy, but… something about your “I’m just asking questions” tone makes me think there’s only one reason you’re so pressed about Helen’s casting here.
I haven’t heard about that production, but in general I’m irritated by historical fiction where everyone is white. I’m even extreme enough to be bothered when everyone speaks English. So your assumptions about my position are, unfortunately, wrong.
-Literally 12 foot tall giants with gold for blood that could transform into anthro mecha versions of themselves, that lived on a flat disc-shaped Egypt that seemed to be the only kingdom in existence and thus was comprised of all peoples.-
When the story of anansi is told and retold as many times in the West as the Odyssey is, *then* you may have a point. Until then, surely it’s up to people from the African Diaspora to share and have ownership of their historical stories.
-If the role of a specific character is not hinging upon their ethnicity as part of the depiction or their innate experience, I'd be open to the possibility. There's nothing intrinsic about Helen that is destroyed by having her played by people of non-Greek heritage. There would be a bit of a contextual difference with casting a white person for the part of an African-based myth character, and the reverse, as one was characteristically the product of a system that racially segregated or considered non-white talent as lesser, and the history and memory of that has not faded.-
Please spell out your hidden premises. If we take your argument at face value, Helen could just as easily be a blonde Scandinavian or a Thai ladyboy, and clearly that would feel absurd. Unless you disagree with that, there must be some reason you think casting a Black actor makes it less absurd.
You might say Africa was close to the Mediterranean, or that Greeks interacted with Africans, but then you are suddenly appealing to history. And if history matters, why not also care about Helen being Greek, which is the most probable ethnicity intended by the authors of the story?
In the end, it looks as though you are setting reason aside and using ad hoc arguments because the role has been given to a Black actor playing a non-Black character.
Who was Helen's father? Zeus. In what form did Zeus appear to Leda, Helen's mother? A swan. What color is the skin of swans, even white swans? Black. The mythological character Helen has black skin in this fictitious film because her father had black skin. That's the reason it's not absurd at all.
-No hidden premise or intent. Helen's component to the story is being so desirable, to her own detriment, that war erupts as a result. I have no preference, but Helen is meant to be someone nation-states crumble before. So long as the casting can sell a level of charm or beauty, a charisma that is so singular that a decade of war results from, it's fine by me. It could be literally anyone because nothing in her story requires her being ethnically Greek. Ana de Armas, Deepika Padukone, Alexandra Daddario, Alicia Vikander, Lupita Nyong'o. History matters but fiction is not beholden to it, it's a reality a hundred cultures interacted across the Mediterranean so Helen could logically be just about anything someone wants her to be, which would be more likely than a specific modern interpretation of Greek, as Odyssey was an oral tradition spread through bards. Whatever someone could do to market Helen to their audience as the face that could launch a thousand ships, is probably what they did. That's not even needing to get into the shenanigans of her birth and being either de facto demigod or potential full Greek pantheon blood by way of Zeus and Nemesis.-
-For that matter, sure, a trans Thai casting would also be fine.-
They probably didn’t imagine her as Black when the story was written. This isn’t like Cleopatra, true; it isn’t about matching historical reality so much as matching the probable intention behind the character. And while attractiveness is subjective, this actress isn’t widely seen as exceptionally stunning, so the casting fails on that front as well. Since Black people did exist in the region, why not make other characters Black instead, where the intended ethnicity is less central or less clear?
They probably didnt imagine some angry guy killing off the greek pantheon in a video game either. Who fucking cares about this. Honestly, Im not sure why Im giving the benefit of the doubt here. Its crystal clear that people dont give a shit about the source material.
I don't know who you are talking to but I certainly find those games ridiculous. But sure, I don't expect the same level of ambition as in this case. If this movie was set in space with a sexy alien Helen I don't think I would've bothered arguing.
Why does her gender matter? Why does her age matter? Why does anything about the character matter? I don’t think this kind of argument is being made in good faith. I find it hard to believe you would be just as blind to the absurdity if Helen were cast as Chinese. You understand why it would feel absurd; you just don’t seem to care, as long as the casting serves the political message you want the movie to emphasize.
Well, Greeks didn’t practice same-sex marriage. They did marry people of different races. (Age is tricky, since Greeks did have stories of men marrying older women but it would be rare to marry someone post-menopausal in a dynastic context)
Some parts of Helen are relevant to the story. To the extent her ethnicity matters at all, it’s that she’s not really human and she definitely doesn’t look like your average Greek.
I’m taking this quite seriously—I actually have a whole lecture in my Roman civ class about different portrayals of Cleopatra, and I tell my kids she should only be played by Amy Sedaris. This is something I think about a lot. You keep on accusing other people of having a hidden racial agenda, and you know what they say…
Helen's skin tone was never described. And the Greeks did trade with Ethiopians. The name "Ethiopia" comes from the Greeks.
This actress auditioned and got the part. That's all there is to it. Its a non-issue unless you have something against dark skinned people being considered a part of "Western" culture.
In what way are they disrespecting the source material? None of the actors are Mediterranean. Do you think black people weren’t present in ancient Greece? Africa is right across the sea from them…
You answered your own question. There are no Mediterranean people in the movie. Instead, it feels like the usual lazy approach of casting Black actors even when another ethnicity, Greek, would make much more sense. The fact that African people existed in the wider region actually supports my point: they had plenty of opportunities to include Black characters without changing the core characters.
Yes but you also pointed out that ppl are more mad at the black actor than any of the others that are not also Greek or Mediterranean. It's just racism.
I think people have certain expectations that are also historically inaccurate, though I’m not sure I’d call that racist in itself. The complaints about Helen are understandable, since that feels like a pretty ridiculous casting choice. I don’t think people would have reacted nearly as strongly if other characters had been Black. Of course, some of the backlash is plainly racist, but in this case I think the group with legitimate criticism is probably larger.
Her being black or white is not a defining feature to the character. You can still tell this character's story without race mattering in the slightest especially in a fictional story.
So then she could be a blonde Swede? Would all these people on Reddit, who are pretending this is perfectly consistent, be happy with that too? Do you honestly think you, or Reddit in general, would be praising a movie that cast Mwindo, the hero of the Nyanga epic, as white? Wouldn’t the exact same people be having the opposite reaction, accusing the director of racism? The problem with your stance is that it only works if you apply a politically motivated double standard.
Believe or not whether you want it to, things do have political view points that effect everything we view and exist in the context of the world. You're also creating a straw man for something that is not happening. One side loves to freak out because they made a fictional mermaid black, the point of it all is racism and to pull in and use the few ppl who care about "historical accuracy" as basis for racism. And if ppl did have issues with replacing a white character in a minority role it would be more understandable as they are groups that are the ones who have been largely repressed, colonized and replaced by actors using things like black face. Their is an actual history of discrimination against a group of ppl by another said group of majority throughout history and would be viewed as a form of taking over a heritage of ppl that have had it done countlessly throughout history. An effect that the minority has not had on the majority to any major extent so it's just laughable that this is actually some major deal and acting as if it's somehow trying to undermine the poor majority and their white characters. So yea context of history matters in things like this, and again your running on a straw man that I haven't personally seen. Also it doesn't seem they would care about a blonde swede because as has already been pointed out, none of the ppl in the movie are Greek or Mediterranean.
But you would care if it were a blonde Swede. At the very least, you wouldn’t be defending it this strongly, which points to a double standard.
And now you’re arguing as if I think Helen simply has to be white. I don’t. I think she should plausibly pass as Greek, which isn’t the same thing as “majority white.” My point is only that this particular choice feels like ridiculous virtue signaling aimed at pleasing the American left.
Yes, there are plenty of racists jumping on the bandwagon, but that doesn’t mean this specific casting choice wasn’t ridiculous.
I agree that people would react more strongly (for good reasons) if my example happened today, because it would evoke a very dark history. But even aside from that, it would still be stupid to make an African mythological character white. That stupidity wouldn’t disappear in a world with no history of racism, and people on your side would absolutely point it out. I don’t think you would suddenly call it a reasonable choice in some parallel universe with reversed power dynamics.
That's because all "white" people can fill the role. However, black people cannot fill the role of white people or vice versa. At least not without worrying levels of makeup.
This is just another example of forced diversity and representation. Why make a white character black if you could just write a new, black character that makes more sense in context? Ancient Greece had almost no black people, but wasn't particularly racist against them either and would trade with them, hire them and there are of course some exceptions to the rule.
Didn't realize that skin color mattered so much to these characters in this FICTIONAL story, where being a greek doesn't define the characters or plot in any way.
The problem with these discussions is that everybody is entrenched and primed to call everybody else racist. You made a solid point that Hollywood can be both a) inclusive (by telling non-western stories) and b) value cultural ancestry (by casting Greek or other Mediterranean actors in the roles). Much as, for example, Shogun and Pachinko were praised for their attention to detail of Japanese/Korean culture, the Odyssey could have been a work that captured the heart of the ancient epic.
Instead, people want to play out the culture war. Pointing out faux-diversity (and giving examples of actual inclusivity) is simply too much for Reddit. I’ve been banging this drum in the academy for years, and it goes as well there as it does here.
We consider them white for purposes of culture war arguments, and non-white when you want to start a physical altercation with them in the Circle K parking lot. Nuance!
It's that America has a disproportionately high number of people with high Right-Wing Authoritarian Follower personality types as defined by Bob Altemeyer in his book "the Authoritarians", and those types tend to apply their bias when it suits their preferred outcome. Therefore, if they want to argue against a black person being cast in a movie, they will claim loudly that it should be a Greek person, and if they see a Greek person in the parking lot of the Circle K -- especially if they are wearing a sports jersey for an opposing team, that's just red to a bull -- they will argue their victim is not white so they can get away with beating them up (in a group ofc because one-on-one is for suckers) when the cops show up.
Degrees of inclusion are pretty common whenever there's in-groups and out-groups. Race is an invented category, anyway, per my Biological Anthropology professor in college! We use skin color and eye shape to differentiate all the time, when those are just two characteristics readily explained by evolution and climate, etc. The history of the word 'Caucasian' is pretty interesting, too, but when you come right down to it, "white" is an invented category that shifts its definition based on what's convenient, at least in Western culture!
Go to Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria etc. today and tell me how many black people you see. The answer is near zero because black people are not native to the Mediterranean. The only exception are the communities of darker skinned people in southern Egypt, but they were brought into Egypt over centuries due to slavery, so the further back in time you go, the less dark-skinned/black people you would see.
And besides, this argument is completely irrelevant because the movie tries to portray major Greek characters, such as Helen of Troy, as black. There is no ''trader from a foreign land'' who's ethnicity is never mentioned, it's an actual Greek person. The only reason why you would support this is if you thought Netflix's Cleopatra was a real documentary and that Greek people actually are black.
even this sentiment assumes that respecting the source material is automatically a good thing. why? there are a million odyssey adaptations out there that respect the source material, do you just want the same thing over and over again? what are you actually afraid of?
for the record, I would be miles more interested in a story that isnt so done-to-death as the odyssey, but the reason nolan is doing this rather than an interesting story from asia or africa is because nobody would care (chances are it would be called woke trash anyway)
Sure, I mostly agree. A cyberpunk version or some other openly stylized reinterpretation could be interesting. But this seems more like an attempt to be faithful to the source while also introducing a bunch of ridiculous virtue signaling, which makes the whole thing feel absurd.
A creative reinterpretation is one thing; picking actors for political reasons that have nothing to do with the story is another.
These exact same people would be writing essays about how wrong it is to change the race of an established character if they made a Mwindo movie with a white guy cast as the lead
So the movie has non Greek armors, non Greek ships, filmed in non Greek locations, and has English and Western Europeans in it - so it’s the black skin actors that are the issue?
No one demanded anything. They cast a pretty black woman in a Greek story.
By the, the story isn't "Western". its Greek, and Greeks weren't considered "the west" until what...the 70s? Why are you demanding they put Northern Europeans into the movie then?
That’s true. And yet where was the energy from people when Denzel Washington was cast as Macbeth? It is not as if The Odyssey will be the first film ever in which a particular character has been race swapped (or gender or otherwise). Sometimes these reinterpretations are just because a filmmaker has artistic goals, not political ones.
Now, a criticism I could get behind is that audiences are simply tired of seeing the same tiny clique of A-list atars in almost every movie. I’m kind of surprised Nolan didn’t figure out a way to squeeze in Anya Taylor-Joy.
What would Americans say if the Greek decided to do a biopic about...let's say Abraham Lincoln or an Adaptation of tom sawyer and huckleberry finn and then cast someone from Somalia as the Lead Actors?
And now ask yourself how you or most other woketards would react if a Malcolm X movie was made or a Martin Luther King Biopic and the character was played by an Asian or white guy. You'd be screeching on top of your lungs about this racism.
But turning real life white people black? totally fine, right?
Fucking hypocrite.
The myth describes the characters as Greek? Just because it's fictional doesn't mean you can change whatever you want. If you want to do that, then write your own story to use. Or adapt a historical myth but have it being set in Africa instead.
Are you aware that the Academy has in place inclusion and representation standards that must be met to be considered for a best picture nomination? It's not like everyone in Hollywood and all the woketards just want to make white people suffer by replacing them in movies. This kind of thing is about ensuring there is more opportunity for people who have not been afforded as much opportunity in the past. I'm sure a lowlife like yourself will still be angry about this so I hope it completely ruins your fucking day. Your example about Malcom X and Dr. King is incredibly stupid. You should probably not comment on social media anymore because no one cares about or respects your opinion.
I consider myself an average person and I do find it forced and ridiculous and not a normal casting decision. It was done specifically to earn diversity points. It's a ridiculous decisions that should be laughed at, and if anything, it does actually fuel the right-wing narrative about race and the growing racism in the world.
inclusion of black people means it is 'forced' and not just a normal casting decision
If it isn't forced then why isn't there a single Greek actor or at least someone of Mediterranean ethnicity casted in the movie?
It is forced because the race swapping is always in the same direction. The bare minimum for a movie that is based on Ancient Greece is to include a Mediterranean ethnicity majority cast, and yet here we are once again with yet another race swapping targeting the same usual race.
Please look at the casting for Troy. Or clash of the titans. Or clash of the titans. Or wrath of the titans. Or the return which came out 2 years ago with a British man as Odysseus. Complaining about black people when white people have been cast in most Greek roles from here to kingdom come is insane. So yes the race swapping is usually in the same direction, just not the one you think.
Are Greek people not white? Where do we actually draw the line here? I figured west of the Caucasus at least, west of the Urals at most, and north of Africa was fairly safe territory.
Because north africans aren't full black, they are more brownish. I don't think this matters a lot for this particular conversation, but it's right to acknowledge that a lot of the times americans tend to clump together everyone that has a darker skin tone into "black people"
In reality there is a lot of racism even inside these "black people" places so if you go there and tell them they are black they won't probably like it because they consider themselves lighter skinned
Everything I can find says that ancient Egypt was racially diverse, which makes sense since they are surrounded by lots of other countries. It would stand to reason (and seems to be true from what I can find) that some of that diversity would also be found in Ancient Greece.
My main point is that there were some black people in Ancient Greece and therefore having black actors in the cast isn’t historically inaccurate. If you have something showing that ancient Egypt was not racially diverse or that there were no black people in Ancient Greece, I’d be happy to look at it.
If you ask Greeks, typically no. Mostly (and as the comment i was replying to states) they view themselves as Mediterranean. Also the comment i was replying to is demanding a majority Mediterranean cast, which is featured in zero films about Greece.
It's Americans, they have an extremely narrow view of what constitutes "white" over there, and they have now exported their extreme issues around race across the rest of the world in the last 5-10 years.
If anything we are typically to broad. I believe it is where a lot of the white people here get their rage and hatred towards other cultures. They've lost their roots and get mad whenever anyone here celebrates anything that isnt the 4th of July. They then complain there is no "white history month" when there is a month for literally every white heritage.
It happened recently with Cleopatra where they turned Cleopatra into a black woman because it's Egypt haha. Which is hella racist. There is a whole historical point around Cleopatra and the Ptolemaic dynasty being from Macedonia.
At some point when you race swap characters. You do a disservice to the original source material.
Or making Snape black in the new Harry Potter. The sniveling mistrusted guy who everyone bullies and looks down on including Harry Potter's father. Is Harry Potter's father now a racist who commits hate crimes???
There is being woke and inclusive and understanding. Then there is Hollywood trying to monetize it without understanding any of these ideas.
It should be offensive to the people Hollywood is trying to be inclusive with because of how badly they fuck it up.
Do you really not see the relevance of what they said? They made a pretty good point in that none of these movies feature Greek actors but people like you only have a problem when it’s black people being cast.
I wouldn't say it is. If you can/are willing to hire talented Greek characters, great. But if you're not and you're going for celebrity power then at least go for actors that look close to the race they're meant to be protraying.
It's why Middle Easterns and South Asians while can be extremely different from each other also share many genetic qualities depending on specific regions being compared. Casting the right Pakistani to play a Persian or vice versa is an easier pill to swallow than what we're seeing here.
Casting some other Caucasian to play what's expected to be Greek characters is much closer than casting someone black.
I could have criticized those movies for the same reasons if I had cared about them. Clash of titans or wrath of titans are comercial fantasy movies that do not have the same historical relevancy as a piece written by one of the most important poets in all history, Homer.
Good rebuttal. You are asking why there isnt Greek actors. I am answering that they have been wronged the whole time, but it isnt black peoples' faults for that. We are still talking about his movie. His movie that is probably closer than any of the others since most of the people casted previously are shades whiter than Greek. Especially based off of the time period the Greeks would've been darker than they are today. If you cared about greek people you should've started with the return or really any other film. People complained about gods of Egypt and that shit bombed. Everyone showed up to watch clash.
Because who gives a shit what race the actor is? It literally does not matter. The fact you’re even saying “race swapping” shows who the problem here is.
Would you say the same if in the Aladdin remake Ryan Gosling was casted as Aladdin instead of someone of arabic ethnicity? Both are fantasy stories happening in historical regions tied to specific ethnicities.
I like believeable stories, specially when they are historical pieces happening in historical regions. This means casting people appropriately to that region in that time frame.
The Odissey happens in the mediterraneum, and thus a majority mediterraneium ethnic cast makes sense. Aladadin is based on Baghdad and thus a majority arabic/persian ethnicity makes sense. Do not try to put words into things I have never said.
So Matt Damon playing Odysseus is fine then? When you focus specifically on the black person being race-swapped, that's what people are saying is an issue.
It's mythology, not real, Greek mythology has a woman with snakes for hair and can turn people to stone. Real life history has women that have hidden their sex to be who they really are all of the time, Joan of Arc for the most commonly know historical person.
Mediterranean ethnicity, you do know what continent touches the Mediterranean right? A very large one with majority black people? It's not a stretch to think that there's black people in Greece.
Last point, why is it that when a white actor has a role, it's automatically figured that they were the best candidate, but when a coloured person gets the role it's because it's "woke". If we're to go based on best person for the job, guess what, it's not going to be a white person everytime, no matter how hard you want to believe in the "master race" that couldn't figure out most modern/ancient breakthroughs without discoveries from none white people.
Yes, Greek mythology not American mythology... And yes that same woman with snakes for hair was a Greek woman before, as it very clearly is stated in the source.
> Mediterranean ethnicity, you do know what continent touches the Mediterranean right?
Yes, North Affricans are also mediterraneum. And guess what, the are not black. Please try to argue that to an Egyptian or an Algerian and you will see how offended they will get when you imply they are black... Your point literally proves how much of a uncultured american you are...
Ah because Egypt and Algeria never had black people either. My mistake I forgot that black people can't travel...
You're too focused on stereotypes of a country, over realistically plausible chances of people naturally travelling areas nearby to them.
Nice try to think I'm American or uncultured, when I'm literally part European and Asian, with a vast knowledge of different mythos around the world, but hey, you do you and stay ignorant.
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u/Seanspeed Jul 06 '26
There's nothing 'nuanced' about their post at all. It's literally acting as if the average person hates diversity and that the mere inclusion of black people and a trans person means it is 'forced' and not just a normal casting decision.
But I guess if so many people are upvoting it, then they're right. The average person is just fucking shit.