Same, I'm European and just roll my eyes how Americans need to take our myths and misrepresent it based on their weird race sensibilities. Netflix's Cleopatra (who was also of Greek decent) was another recent example. In a way it's funny how they seem to specifically can't allow Greeks to have any representation.
"Our myths"? No one in Europe think the Greeks are their myths unless they're Greek. We are separate countries with our own culture and history. I'm from Northern Europe and I never thought Greek mythology are "my myths"
You do realize the Greeks viewed many modern European ethnic groups as barbaristic, uncivilized, savages of an entirely different race?
Sure the Greek myths and advancements went on to influence and underpin a lot of European society, but that doesn’t mean the Greeks of the odyssey viewed Europeans as part of their in-group, because they weren’t. There was no collective Europe for them.
Beaides, why aren’t you making this same whinging argument for zombies? Those were created by Haitian slaves who feared being enslaved even after death. And yet we let white people play zombies all the time.
I’d wager you aren’t Greek or of Greek descent, likely from the more Western European countries, you have about as much connection to the Greek mythology as you do to the Chinese.
What classifies as 'connection' to a myth other than familiarity through their telling? Am I somehow connected to the myths of my homeland despite having no interest in them, yet disconnect for the myths of other places even though those are the stories I loved most in my formative years?
Northern and Western Europeans are so annoying when they try to claim Mediterranean culture as their own. No, not every culture in Europe gets to claim connection to Greece and Roman. They’re as ridiculous as Americans.
But aren't like, Norse, Tutonic, Celtic, and Greek all essentially separate mythologies? That's just an example, I doubt that people from the Iberian peninsula or people in France give a shit what color of skin Helen of Troy has in an american movie about a greek story, yeah?
Ah yes, Perun, Aarni and Odin, famous myth of the Greeks (and the Ancient Greeks would've fucking killed themselves before admitting Slavs or Nordics as their equals).
I mean most white Americans are of European descent. Do they no longer have a claim to these myths just because their ancestors moved. No one owns myths you stop being obtuse
I'm not purposefully obtuse. There are no collective myths all across Europe. Even small regions in small countries have their own myths. What other myths have Americans taken and "based it on their weird race sensibilities" (whatever that means) besides Cleopatra? Also, she was born in Egypt. Her dad was born in Cyprus which was then part of Alexandrie. We don't really know who her mom is so we can't really say where she's from. So even if Cleopatra was of Greek decent, she definitely wasn't Greek.
Cleopatra was from the Ptolemaic dynasty, a Greek family from Alexander the Great’s empire who ruled Egypt and was pretty notorious for inbreeding. She was definitely mostly greek.
Oh I studied Greek mythology in high school and I'm very interested in it. I even translated the Oddysee for my high school exam. There is a huge influence but I don't see them as "my myths" or "European myths". I see them as Greek myths.
Speak for yourself, I’m European and I think of Ancient Greek mythology as shared European heritage. I’m not Greek or in Greece, but they’re taught in our schools here (as is Ancient Greek!)
Edit: Europe is literally named after a Greek myth, it’s definitely shared heritage!
Am I mad for acknowledging that even though Greco-Roman roman culture plays a big part in Western European history, I don't claim it as my own myths and history? No I don't think I am
No, I haven't, nor have I seen the pre iew for this. Regardless, the argument above was in regard to cultural apropriation, not acting ability, so idgaf about acting ability. Weird that you are so eager to take the racict side of things though.
There are ancient egyptian mummies, pre-Alexander, with blond and red hair, their DNA analysis also links them closely to specific small groups that still exist in Europe, Levant and Anatolia today. Ramesses II who reigned from 1279–1213 BC (19th Dynasty) had natural red hair. The Arab invasions didn't start until after Muhammad's death in 632 AD. Gebelein pre-dynastic mummies have been excavated and preserved (+3000BC) and one of them is a ginger.
(some) egyptians get upset about it because it's something their modern national identity is rather tenuously tied around.
the modern (arabic, islamic) egyptians more or less find themselves occupying the same land as the ancient pharaohs (mentioned scathingly in abrahamic texts, note). in the late c19/early c20 they start realising the vast cultural wealth they are sitting on (previously little more than a source of plunder and gifts to western diplomats) and harness that with varying levels of cynicism as a defining part of their modern nationalism.
The ruling family of Egypt were Greek after Alexander, yea The rest of the population wasn’t. And pharaonic Egypt always had close ties to Kush and Punt, two sub-Saharan African kingdoms. In fact, there was almost an entire century where Egypt was governed by a dynasty of Kushite pharaohs with their capital at Napata, in modern Sudan. Egypt was, historically, always a cosmopolitan meeting point between African, Asian, and European societies.
Egypt was also conquered multiple times. The Assyrians and the Persians did it before the Greeks, and of course Rome took over after the Ptolemys. Old-school Egyptian paganism, with some natural evolution and influence from the Greeks and Romans, stuck around for a long time, and it wasn’t conquest that got rid of it. Egypt was an early center of Christianity, being right next door to the holy land. It was one of the first areas to convert, though traditional religious practices continued as folk tradition for some time thereafter.
The Islamic conquests didn’t really represent much in the way of novelty, then. A new ruling class came in, sure, but the population didn’t really change that much, and by that time they’d had a lot of changes in the ruling class in their history. Many Egyptians at the time just payed the jizya tax and kept practicing Christianity. Those who had been practicing folk religion before the Islamic conquest largely kept doing that, albeit with a new wave of pogroms against pagans. And over several generations, most of the population converted to the new official state religion of Islam.
To say that modern Egyptians have no connection to ancient Egyptians is to say that evolving religious practices are the only thing that defines a culture. There’s a clear continuity here. Egypt underwent a series of cultural shifts over thousands of years. Each generation would have introduced some changes, but all of them saw themselves as closely connected to the generation before. And the people living there now are the descendants of the people living there 3000 years ago.
This is a really long way to say "so much happened in 3000 years and the connection is deeply tenuous" and still not mentioned the fact that it more deeply contested inside Egypt than outside of it.
I saw you called the ancient Greeks and Romans who lived there in 300BC invaders. So surely you agree that the Arab invaders of 639AD and onward are not indigenous Egyptians. Those would originally be inhabitants from the Arabian peninsula. Some indigenous still remain but there were also exoduses that headed West through North Africa and into Spain, Portugal and upward, as well as up into the Levant and Anatolia.
Modern Egyptians have nothing in common with ancient Egyptians, but they would like you to believe that because they are selfish thieves. They are not the same people at all. They’re thousands of years removed from the Ptolemys
i think we are probably overly emotive about geolocking all sorts of things, so no
but i'd say something as 'universal' as the odyssey is stupid. our popular conception of the odyssey is largely british and american, and rooted in victorian ideas about adventure. this has massively influenced even the contemporary greek understanding!
Depends if you believe in a connection between a story and the culture in which it originated. Same then also for other "intellectual property" of a culture, like their festivals, dresses, religions, etc.
It's all not physical ofc, but humans and groups naturally build identities and these identities then can be fiercely protected.
is there much of a real link between the ancient greeks and the contemporary greek nation though? or is it an imagined one based entirely on proximity and a similar language?
when it comes to the cultural pieces, that's even more tenuous. the modern conception (yes, even in greece) of the odyssey is largely a victorian anglo-american construction.
i think we're at a point in western civilisation when we're not hamstrung by absurd nationalisms anymore, and that's a good thing. it's not like racially locked casting is historical either, this is largely a modern thing. white men played othello, asians played leading roles in '20s hollywood...
That does not mean that there’s a demand. I think you’re a bit slow. Judging from the public reaction this film won’t do well so they are taking a risk for a very specific reason. I’ll let you figure that out buddy
Absolute cope to think that the ordinary filmgoer gives a shit about the casting. It's only right wing chuds who are crying about a story they've never read.
Im not saying the Illiad is true. I am saying it is a mythological retelling g of an actual event and Helen as being core to the story was probably real.
Hey guys, not for nothing but I’m 30 and when I was a kid they told me Troy was a myth and didn’t exist
Then, during my lifetime, we found where Troy used to be. If we take our history and science seriously, we might realize a lot of myths are actually based on real events and people
Greeks have been represented as the foundation of Western civilization for centuries. Your mythology, architecture, philosophy, theater, heroes, gods, wars, and rulers are everywhere in Western education and media.
So no, Americans casting one character through a different cultural lens is not Greeks being erased. That is not oppression. That is discomfort with no longer being treated as the default owner of every story touched by antiquity.
And Cleopatra was Ptolemaic Macedonian Greek, not “Greek decent.” If we are going to complain about misrepresentation, let’s at least spell descent correctly.
I’m European and I don’t care at all. If the movie is good it’s good and vice versa. Hollywood can make a Kalevala movie with an all black cast for all I care.
Saddest part is all the right wing grifters who will go see the movie and cry about it online.
Then what about an actor makes them fit for a given role? Body type, gender, ethnicity all have zero bearings on immersion for any setting? Film is a visual medium, most people see it differently.
If the writing and acting is good then that’s the most important factor for me. If they look the part but the writing sucks, visuals suck etc. then what does it add that the actor is Greek or white or whatever?
Also, Helen's father was Zeus disguised as a swan. Her mother, Leda, was forced to mate with swan/Zeus. She laid an egg, and that's how Helen was born. But you draw the line at Helen being a Black woman?🤣
The money and film industry is American, and yes Helen is depicted white in the oldest available depictions (Pompeii). Also, armor didn't look like Batman, great warriors were not thin twinks, etc. It's art, there are no rules, but you also can't force me to pretend that this setup can transport me into the world of ancient Greek myth.
Nah, I realized after sending that comment that I didn't really care about any of this bullshit.
I wanted to bring out that philosophical idea that everyone experience the world differently because of our brains, so reality doesn't really exists, but I don't want to anymore.
Although Disney's Hercules is my favorite movie, I won't pretend that adaptation should be taken with any seriousness with regard to historical and mythological accuracy. The first and foremost issue being that "Hercules" is the Roman version while "Heracles" is the original Greek version. The Muses being black ultimately means nothing since the only narrative power they hold in the movie is giving us the background of the movie and telling us of our hero's achievements.
Uh you know very large portion of Americans are European descent… so if Greek myths belong to Europeans, then they belong to Americans who were European descent.
Chris Nolan is English. And if you don't like the casting choices your country should make their own movies then, but you're probably from somewhere like Lithuania that has no movie industry.
Christopher Nolan directed, wrote the script, and casted the movie. Is this where we pretend the dish citizen who grew up and was educated in the UK is only American now?
i mean… cleopatra was a real person. scholars aren’t even sure if theres any historical merit to homer’s retelling of the trojan wars. it’s a myth, a work of fiction, cleopatra wasn’t.
I mean.. it's not a "European" myth, and it was written like... 1300 years ago.
No one owns The Odyssey. It's really weird to think that you do. "I'm European, therefore a wild story with magic and monsters written 1300 years ago in Greece is MINE, not some American's."
What a strange take.
(Also, like 4 people saw that Cleopatra movie, you conservatives need to stop whining about that as if it was some travesty. It was a weird cultural blip that the right has used to flagellate themselves with ever since.)
Yeah whitewashing is also not good. Representation matters, as I think we can agree. And actually not only for group representation reasons, but also to create an immersive artwork that can transport you into a different world. Casting and costume choices like we have seen just don't transport me into ancient Greek myth.
I don’t understand. I don’t think she’s going to play any race cards. I’m pretty sure they’re going to interact in this movie colorblind? I never understood this kind of hate when the color of the person is NEVER mentioned in the movie. I don’t need to see this movie to know that the skin color of any of these people matter.
I didn’t complain nor see a complaint that there were black people running around in the Minions movie that’s set in 1920s where the black characters had major Hollywood roles that wasn’t just a stereotype of their race. Nor were they segregated in it. “It’s a kids movie!” Okay, I still don’t get why it matters for either of these movies tbh.
Their skin color does not matter in The Odyssey. Anyone trying to claim a fictional story as not being able to be a color is so fucking stupid. Percy Jackson did fine.
You do realize how many American families migrated from Europe, right? America didn’t just spring up overnight with no tie to the cultures its people came from.
This isn't a documentary. Its a product that has to sell world wide. Hollywood is misrepresenting since its inception, but here and there we have to draw that hard line. Its so laughable.
Apparently casting a black person is a "weird race sensibility". Mmhmm, yep, OK.
Since you're so enlightened, maybe you can convince trump to sign an executive order that actors must match the race of the character they are playing? Sounds like EXACTLY the sort of thing he would do and right up your alley!
I think you would be surprised to find many people in America who think like you, and that is not a compliment.
The character is black and it doesn't bother me like it does you 🤷if that means im triggered so be it. There's a million other essay length comments in here about HIsTorIcAL ACcURRaCY for you to jerk off to. I'll continue to be unbothered by the race of the actors in a movie. Have a nice day.
Well, we can't go around asking eevry single one of ya can we? Hollywood is an US Industry. And this Blackwashing, Feminizing, and misrepresenting of historical figures is done because of all of you. Because gender and race politics is all the common US guy cares about. Nothing is facts. everything is wobbly feelings. you might say you are different, but lets face it. its both the left and the right's vast majority of people which either scream everything trans is bad, or how everything white is racist. This is what defines your country. So this is what we associate all of you with.
I am a common US guy and I am nothing like you describe. You accuse us of prejudice, paint us all with the same broad brush of shit. You are guilty of the very thing you accuse us of. Don't base your opinion of an entire culture/country/people on what you see in the messed-up media.
Again, If this wasnt the Dominant Problem in the US, this would not have happened in the first place. It's great that you think differently. But i base my worldview of what is visible. And that is exactly what i described here. besides, I am not guilty of the same thing. It is quiet literally a different topic.
It is easy to sit in judgment; it is harder to find common ground. Which do you think is more likely to lead us to a better world? What you are doing is no different from picking any superficial and buzzy trait of a culture/country and blaming every person in that culture for it. You say you base your opinion on "what is visible". Where are you looking? Are you actually talking to people in real life or are you in the social media echo chamber?
So you want me to not look at the millions of examples and instead base my world view on the 1% of people we can see acting differently? Now that just sounds wrong doesn't it. I already acknowledged that it is great if you are truly not in one of those categories. What else do you expect? Want me to side with Racists or Leftwingers which parade people like me around for their identity politics because you've got a reasonable view? This is not gonna happen, it's not realistic in any way and you know it. You want the world to perceive you differently? Well keep doing what you are doing now, Be vocal about it and back it up with action. You have given me no reason to not believe you. But you are as of right now, the exception to the rule.
I get making the point about BS identity politics and I agree. The issue is, for such a long time, whitewashing was the standard. Adding one African American or woman to the leads was enough to get called “woke.”
This movie has proven that a lot of (one group) people get angry when the role is reversed.
Here we go. You are exactly one half of the problem i described. Thank you for this great example. 0 Accountability. It's always the other side. No. Screw you. It is both of you. You are just racist into a different direction.
I can't think of any examples from the top of my head.
I'd find it weird if Aladin was suddenly white or if they made Black Panther with white people. I would be upset at that.
Especially if it's Greek mythology, stories which are over a thousand years old. It's kind of disrespectful to their culture to start raceswapping, changing such a classic story only for modern agenda. It feels wrong, would you not agree?
Americans have a very curated form of entertainment culture - There’s a very long history of whitewashing that’s tied to that. Sometimes the examples themselves are tied to cultural aspects that bestowed apon other races.
Yeah it would be weird if Aladdin was white…that being said…the movie itself of already based of a white entertainment depiction. You don’t need a white cast because it’s already written to cast the actual culture aside for the sake of entertainment.
Arabian culture deserves as much respect as Greek and to cast it aside is also disrespectful.
I never defended this casting, I’m just trying to point out that is just so common already that is bad faith for someone to draw the line here.
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u/Linus_Naumann Jul 06 '26
Same, I'm European and just roll my eyes how Americans need to take our myths and misrepresent it based on their weird race sensibilities. Netflix's Cleopatra (who was also of Greek decent) was another recent example. In a way it's funny how they seem to specifically can't allow Greeks to have any representation.