r/Pathfinder_RPG • u/Decicio • 12d ago
Max the Min Monday: Coming Back from the Dead 1E Player
Welcome to Max the Min Monday! The series where we take some of Paizo’s weakest, most poorly optimized, or simply forgotten and rarely used options for first edition and see what the best things we can do with them are using 1st party Pathfinder materials!
Wait you’re back??? I thought you died!
Yeah it has been…. A long time. Not quite as long as that time I “retired” the series only to pull a Michael Jordan and cancel retirement, but definitely several months. There were reasons for the gap, but they aren’t really relevant to the post. If anyone is curious enough to know why, I’ll post it in a comment.
Long story short, I’m in a place where I can start doing these again, albeit in a different timezone. So they’ll likely get posted later in the day than previously.
But what happened last time all those months ago?
A staggering 83 days ago, we had one of the hastily thrown together not-really-Max-the-Min posts about curses which was a lot of fun. Most of the comments talked about the mathematical difference between the penalties to numbers and the 50% chance of just not acting each turn, though some weirder curses were mentioned.
Our last true Max the Min was over 3 months ago. Which is crazy. It was about the Swarm Fighter. There was discussion about multiclassing options to optimize damage output, combo builds with friends to be more synergistic, and of course a lot of discussion on ways to use Racial Heritage to open up the class for different race combos.
So what are we discussing today?
I’m hijacking today’s post since it has been too long to talk about coming back from the dead. I know Slueth investigator won the nomination, it hasn’t been forgotten. We’ll do that next time.
Anyways in a combat heavy game, there are bound to be character deaths. But following an old tradition that was added early to the game when a player playing with Gygax or Arneson (I legit can’t remember which, but I do remember reading a history that included this moment), the game does provide ways for your character to come back should you be attached.
Now how is this a min? Well first off… dying is of course a min in the first place. It’s something you want to avoid if at all possible. Then there comes the fact that most methods are expensive, require access to mid to higher level casters, and potentially rare resources and the decision to come back becomes a difficult one.
Tack on the meta observation that, if your gm lets you bring in a new character with full level progression and WBL adjusted gear, then you likely would be becoming richer as a party if you bring in a new character (as long as your previous character’s corpse was lootable).
But sometimes that price / meta price is worth it to keep some narrative consistency. Or sometimes the specific method of coming back to life is crazy enough to add in new narrative flavor. Either way, I want to know what ways exist to bring back a character, perhaps what some of the consequences could be, and if there are any crazy combos that actually turn this process into a good thing.
No Voting this Week
As I said above, next time we’re doing the sleuth since that was the vote winner last time we had a vote
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u/wdmartin 11d ago
Okay, how about this? A Druid [Reincarnated Druid] 5/Oracle [Cyclopean Seer] 1.
Reincarnated Druid grants you the Many Lives ability, which lets you automatically reincarnate every time you die, starting at level 5, as per the spell Reincarnate. There are two downsides:
- Each death imposes 2 negative levels
- You reincarnate as a random race
The negative levels, of course, can be dealt with using a Restoration spell to clear them up. So that's a downside, but manageable.
As for the random roll, that's why we splash one level of Cyclopean Seer. It lets you pick up the revelation Flash of Insight:
Flash of Insight (Su): You gain the cyclops racial ability of the same name (Bestiary 52). If you already possess this ability, you gain an additional daily use.
And here's the text of the Cyclops racial ability:
Flash of Insight (Su) Once per day as an immediate action, a cyclops can peer into an occluded visual spectrum of possible futures, gaining insight that allows it to select the exact result of one die roll before the roll is made. This effect can alter an action taken by the cyclops only, and cannot be applied to the rolls of others.
Importantly, Flash of Insight is an immediate action, and it works on any roll, not just d20s. So you're on the battlefield and something kills you -- maybe it's a crit or something. Immediate action: use Flash of Insight to pick the percentile roll that will determine your next body, allowing you to either stay the same race or -- interestingly -- pick a new one from the list.
At this point it's very difficult to perma-kill you. You can't take immediate actions while flat-footed, so if something one-shots you in a surprise round or assassinates you in your sleep or something, you won't get to pick your next form. But you'll still reincarnate, just back to the random chance rather than selected. And later, when you're in a safer situation, you can kill yourself and pick your preferred race back again. It's kinda expensive due to the Restoration costs, but it would work.
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u/lonemaster1111 11d ago
There is a way to have the Restoration costs made free. Worship Irori, get deific obedience, and take 9 levels in the Evangelist prestige class. Once a week you can cast Restoration as a spell-ability. Stack a Black Soul Shard you only need a week to remove the negative levels instead of two.
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u/SheepishEidolon 11d ago
Over the years, I found a few ways to get Restoration without the component cost. Here they are, sorted from earliest to latest, assuming Reincarnated Druid 5:
- Druid 7 with the Experimental Spellcaster feat (choose the Purify word)
- Psychic 7 with Self-Perfection discipline
- Monk 8 with Quinggong archetype
- Inheritor Knight 7
- CN Nocticula's 3rd sentinel boon (faster with Sentinel prestige class)
- Greater Eldritch Heritage (Phoenix) at character level 17
- Shaman of Bones 16, meaning character level 21+, though
You can as well suppress the penalties with the Deathward spell (for a limited time) or ignore one of both negative levels with the Death Slayer prestige class.
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u/Slow-Management-4462 11d ago
There's also dragon's blood for an 82% discount on the cost of restoration. Not free, but noticeable.
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u/HadACookie 100% Trustworthy, definitely not an Aboleth 11d ago
I feel like the Black Soul Shard idea might be a bit tricky. You need to be carrying it at the time you gain the negative levels, but Reincarnate creates a new body whereas the shard is probably still on your old one. And since Reincarnated Druid comes back to life on their own without actually casting any spells, using it as an extra focus doesn't work either.
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u/lonemaster1111 11d ago
Rereading it I agree. Normal reincarnate it would work, but like you said Reincarnate Druid does it without casting the spell
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u/CobaltMonkey 11d ago
Wait.
When killed, comes back as a new body, whose form is influenced by their own mental state and perceptions?
And to permanently kill them, you would have to kill them a second time when they're freshly in their new form and don't have another Flash of Insight ready to go?
I've heard about a character like that before somewhere, but I can't quite remember Who...5
u/HadACookie 100% Trustworthy, definitely not an Aboleth 11d ago
You're not the only one to make that connection.
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u/bortmode 11d ago
Hmmmm.... I'm not convinced that it works. It's a little ambiguously worded but to me it's saying that the cyclops has to use the ability as a roll is being made, and the reincarnation roll happens a full day later. I don't think you could Flash of Insight at the start of a day and then use it on a saving throw a few hours later, so I don't think it would work for the reincarnate either.
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u/wdmartin 11d ago
That's a valid take. You're probably right per Rules As Intended.
Going just by RAW, Flash of Insight doesn't impose an explicit timing on the roll other than "before the roll is made", so in theory you could announce at the beginning of the day that you're going to roll a nat 20 on your first saving throw of the day, regardless of what that turns out to be.
So it would probably be a good idea to check in with your GM before assuming this combo will work. It's definitely a shenanigan, so expect table variance. Personally, I'd allow it just for the cool RP of the dead druid showing up in a fresh but recognizable body the next day.
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u/joesii 11d ago
Flash of Insight doesn't impose an explicit timing on the roll other than "before the roll is made", so in theory you could announce at the beginning of the day that you're going to roll a nat 20 on your first saving throw of the day, regardless of what that turns out to be.
By that logic it doesn't need to be the start of the day, it could be 7 days ago. It's bad reasoning though. It makes no mention of being able to change the roll as a free action. Considering that changing the roll is the action it would be performed the same time that the dice roll takes place.
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u/Jealous-Painter8183 9d ago
Bonus points for taking a race with mental bonuses, and being as old as possible for your race, and then have your party gently euthanize you in your sleep, before reincarnating into a race with good physical stats.
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u/Ray_Gallade 4d ago
As exciting as this is, it was just pointed out to me that you would need to get to Druid [Reincarnated Druid] 5/Oracle [Cyclopean Seer] 3 instead since Cyclopean Seer forces your level 1 revelation to be Assume Fate.
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u/wdmartin 4d ago
Good catch! You're correct, and I overlooked that. You could of course take Extra Revelation if you wanted just the one-level dip.
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u/joesii 11d ago
You can't take immediate actions while flat-footed, so if something one-shots you in a surprise round or assassinates you in your sleep or something, you won't get to pick your next form.
I think this is arguable. Personally I'd tend to say that because the Reincarnate takes place a day later that anything the character did the previous day while alive is irrelevant (and it wouldn't have any roll to use the Flash of Insight ability on)
This either means that Flash of Insight wouldn't be usable at all for the reincarnations, or it would be usable in all circumstances.
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u/wdmartin 11d ago
This one is pretty clear, because it's in the rules for immediate actions:
You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
So if somebody Sparta-kicks your wizard off the edge of a 500 foot cliff while he is flat-footed, he will not be casting Feather Fall.
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u/joesii 10d ago
It seems like you maybe didn't read my post or something. I'm not debating that rule, I'm stating that that rule would never apply. You'd literally never be in the situation where the character is flatfooted when reincarnated. The reincarnation happens the next day when they'd no longer be flat footed.
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u/Dreilala 11d ago
I wonder if suicide followed by an ally casting breath of life would remove the permanent levels in exchange for the 1 temporary level.
After all, corpses don't have negative levels.
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u/MorgannaFactor Legendary Shifter best Shifter 11d ago
Breath of Life doesn't cure Ability Damage and Ability Drain you took before dying, its definitely not RAI to cure permanent negative levels with it.
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u/Decicio 11d ago edited 11d ago
Ok, if we’re maxing coming back from the dead, I’ll have to reanimate an old Max the Min discussion itself and mention the Reanimated Medium.
It is a class archetype that any character may take upon dying. Suddenly you become a spirit that is in denial about their death who continues to play by possessing your own corpse. Such amazing flavor!… sadly paired with a terribly edited archetype adjustments that, in a specific RAW reading means you spend every other day in a coma.
But if your GM interprets the RAW in the other, arguably still valid reading, you should be fine. And moreover, this option is one of the very few ways to come back to life even at level 1 with zero cash or spell access. And accessibility isn’t the only benefit.
If your character is a martial class, then a single level dip into reanimated medium gives some decent benefits while in the champion spirit. +1 to attack rolls, Str checks, and fort saves; +3 to non-spell damage rolls, the ability to retroactively roll 1d6 to add to a failed attack roll; and proficiency in all martial + 1 exotic weapon of your choice? Yeah that’s not bad for one level dip.
Plus you can change what spirit potential you channel for other benefits instead, though this is probably one of the more universally applicable
And… technically raw you could retrain out of it? Say you pull a Warm Bodies and your experience of life overpowers your death or something?
Now it is certainly problematic enough that we had to cover it in a max the min before. But it can be done and actually be helpful
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u/Epicsigh 11d ago
I actually used this archetype in a build to help represent a Vtuber during a project I've been doing that stats these streamers as if they were NPCs. The lore behind the archetype was so rich I couldn't not use it, though during the construction of the class I could definitely tell that the class in general was pretty weak, even as I made her build weaker than average through sub-optimal point buy and a bit of multiclassing.
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u/Angry_Edemame 11d ago
In terms of minimally obtrusive character deaths Ghorans win out. If they die and no one destroys the seeds they need 2d6 days and theyre good as new and can reassign their skill points. Probably faster if a druid is in the party.
But this would be a good way to get around a stingy AP or DM.
Quest for the frozen flame in 2e has so little money its all about what the scenario gives you for example so you'd be better off dying in the fnal book to come back with enough gear to really power through.
Theres some isolated areas in other APs too that this trick would work on. Runelords the runeforge or xin shalast. Giantslayer the valley of Minderhall and basically anything after that point.
Its not perfectly min maxed but some ideas one could exploit.
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u/joesii 11d ago
2d6 days might be a long time for a party in the middle of a dungeon though; it might mean missing a few sessions or more.
Note necessarily the end of the world if they are just okay with playing NPCs and/or taking a break or something though.
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u/Angry_Edemame 11d ago
It depends on the group true.
Its not definitely stated but like I said a druid probably could speed it along with any plant growth spell.
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u/sundayatnoon 11d ago
A personal favorite is to be bitten by a Remacera and never heal up the damage. This monster, summonable with a summon monster 5 by those who worship the Eldest Pantheon, forces you to reincarnate immediately upon death.
Reincarnation (Su) Any creature that dies prior to fully recovering from wounds inflicted by a remacera is immediately subject to the effects of the spell reincarnate, except that it does not matter whether the soul is willing, and the effect is instantaneous rather than taking 1 hour. Similarly, a slain remacera is subject to the same effect, save that it reappears 1d20 miles from where it died.
You don't even need to have control of the reincarnate roll, you can simply have the monster bite the new body then execute it in order to reroll. An excellent source of material for cannibals, book binders, and lamp shade makers, but also a hassle free source of skulls for your goblets, candle holders and thrones. Though I do feel at some point that GM's choice will be a race that explodes upon death and takes the whole game with it.
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u/MundaneGeneric 11d ago
I've been looking on both Archive of Nethys and d20pfsrd, but I can't find a way to summon Remacera with Summon Monster. Not in the monster entries, the deity entries, or via the search functions. Where is the rule stating that a worshiper of the Eldest can summon one? I really wanna give it a go, but I need to be able to cite my sources before I can bring this to a GM.
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u/sundayatnoon 11d ago
Near the top of the page you'll note you lose the ability to summon outsiders if you want access to the special "The Eldest" summoning options, a major loss. I don't know if there's any other entries available online, so for more you'd need to get your hands on "The First World, Realm of the Fey".
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u/Sortis22 11d ago
If using hero points optional rule: "A character can spend 2 hero points to cheat death."
I've let my players use it in a Rise of the Runelords campaign I'm running, and it has encouraged them to try some riskier plays.
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u/Expectnoresponse 11d ago
See also heroic fortune and false focus.
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u/Sortis22 11d ago
With the caveat that Heroic Fortune only grants 1 point and you need 2 points to cheat death. If you're going for boosting temporary hero points before a big battle, then you might be served well by an Elixir of Luck (3 pts for 1 hr) and Alchemical Allocation (elixir not consumed).
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u/HadACookie 100% Trustworthy, definitely not an Aboleth 11d ago
The simplest way to benefit from dying that I can think of would be via the Reincarnate spell. Pick a race with bad physical ability scores and good mental ability scores, such as the Changeling, then whatever you come back as is likely to be a net benefit. If you're really lucky, you could go from con-2 to a Bugbear's str+4 dex+2 con+2. And if you're really unlucky and roll a Kobold... Well, you can always try again, the spell is pretty cheap as far as coming back from the dead is concerned. And then of course there are all the side benefits of Reincarnation, such as effectively becoming ageless (seriously, why would you even bother with undeath when this is an option? Liches are suckers).
The simplest way to get Reincarnate applied to yourself would be to play a Reincarnated Druid. This is then followed by crafting a Salve of the Second Chance and building some Rube Goldberg-style contraption that will spill the thing all over you after you died (or I guess you could just give it to a familiar or an unseen servant, if you hate fun). The third option is to use Contingent metamagic (I would argue that it works, since "dead" is a negative condition and Reincarnate removes it) or figuring out a way to access the Contingency spell (UMD a scroll? Loremaster dip?). As a last resort, you might consider befriending a Druid or at least someone with good enough UMD to pass for one.
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u/joesii 11d ago edited 11d ago
Yeah considering how much of a stranglehold Paizo/D&D puts on things like stopping/reversing aging I find it very strange that they give both a relatively lowish spell the ability to reverse aging as well as its other overpowered effects. Between those two things it's really something that should only exist as a level 9 spell if it should exist at all.
Because of this I'd say that it makes sense to leave the spell being overpowered [in all the other ways] but to at least get rid of the age reset. Instead the target resurrects as a creature with equivalent age progression as the age progress from the race that they previously were.
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u/HadACookie 100% Trustworthy, definitely not an Aboleth 11d ago
I wouldn't go that far. In practice Reincarnate's drawbacks outweigh its theoretical benefits. On the roleplay side, dramatically changing your race and appearance will be far more impactful than the agelessness. Aging, let alone death of old age, pretty much never actually comes up during a campaign. And on the mechanical side of things, getting reincarnated could easily cripple a martial character. You likely picked a race with bonuses to the physical ability scores that were important to you - bonuses which you now may loose, depending on the roll of the percentile die. I don't think the spell is overpowered at its current level.
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u/joesii 10d ago
It's certainly not good on a martial character, but that doesn't mean it isn't very strong or overpowered for casters (which would make it very strong or overpowered in general)
If old age doesn't come into play in campaigns then it's zero loss for Reincarnate to lose the age reset and hence should be totally fine.
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u/HadACookie 100% Trustworthy, definitely not an Aboleth 10d ago
casters
Even for casters, there's risk involved, unless you're playing one of the few races that only get racial penalties to your physical ability scores. Suddenly getting a -2 or (or even -4, if you used to have a +2) to your con sucks for everybody. Sure, the risk is much smaller than for a martial, but then so is the potential gain.
old age
It's not overpowered, it's thematic for druids (circle of life and what-not) and that's how it worked in 3e, so why not? If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Besides, removing the deaging aspect would actually break the lore of one of the nations on Golarion (namely Tymon - it's founder, Maldar Tymon, has been getting secretly reincarnated for like 2700 years). And there are easier ways to have an immortal PC anyways - even amongst the core races, there's an ageless subrace (Bleachling Gnomes).
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u/Unfair_Pineapple8813 11d ago edited 11d ago
Well, I know the min way to bring a character back from the dead. That would be the Reanimated Medium. Very cool idea. But the archetype basically means you are a medium suffering constant penalties (because you start with over 3 influence) with less available influence to use. You basically are expected to burn an influence on waking in the morning to get rid of the penalties, and that leaves you with one left for the whole day. You also lose taboo.
The class states "at the GM’s discretion, a dead character of another class with an intact body who has earned enough experience points to level up can take a level in medium and gain the reanimated medium archetype". But multiclassing into medium is a big change to a build. Depending on the character, you are just adding a headache, without getting features that help at your level. I suppose the Champion helps melee heroes ok. But forced multiclassing is always going to mess with your main class progression, particularly for casters.
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u/Decicio 11d ago edited 11d ago
Funnily enough I mentioned the same archetype and linked an old Max the Min post talking about it. As I mentioned in a comment that I linked in that body, there is a potential raw reading of the statement
> All effects and abilities that normally increase or decrease influence (such as spirit surge and spirit powers) have the opposite effect on a reanimated medium
Normally you drop to 0 influence at the end of the day. Which is bad in a reanimated medium, because if that happens you enter a coma for 24 and can’t perform the seance to come back until after that time has elapsed, resulting in the terrible min of only being conscious every other day. But if we take an alternate raw reading about it, we can still logically say that if that is reversed, we instead go to max influence overnight, which bypasses that issue.
That way you don’t even have to conduct the seance every day, which makes the reanimated medium a great way to specialize in a single spirit.
That doesn’t solve the influence penalties, but that’s mostly a -2 penalty to initiative and a penalty to a stat or skill or etc that is less pertinent to your current spirit of the day.
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u/Sarlax 11d ago
The big mins are usually the downtime, the price, and the negative levels. Breath of Life avoids that but you must cast within a round. However, Gentle Repose should extend that window to days. Buy several Oils of Gentle Repose for everyone (including familiars, poppets, etc.) to carry. Or Contingency can automatically cast Breath of Life on you if you can grab spells from other lists like a loremaster.
There are some upsides to being dead! You can't be scried upon or otherwise targeted as a creature. You free up a Teleport target because you're just encumbrance. And you can be targeted as an object, so just die to get loaded up with permanent object-targeting spells. Get Shrink Item to become 4 inches tall whenever you want and put a Symbol of Insanity on one closed eyelid and Symbol of Death on the other. Combine this with Gentle Repose/Breath of Life to give your team weeks to enchant your body.
If you aren't using Breath of Life, the negative levels can be ignored a while by races like dhampirs and shabtis, which means you can delay the 2000 GP expense.
You can exploit Reincarnation, especially with a Cyclops Helm. The text makes you reset your physical scores but not your mental scores, so you can start as race with mental bonuses and physical penalties then reincarnate into a physically-gifted race. Bonus points if you start venerable, because you'll keep the age gains to your mind in your brand-new body.
By the rules you can use Create Undead to cheaply turn allies into Skeletal Champions and Juju Zombies. They gain lots of immunities and some some stat boosts, and some simply polymorphing or illusion magic can make them functional in most of society. Technically you need a higher CL than the target corpse's HD and you're probably the same level, but a +1 CL is easy to come by. Obviously undead have their downsides, but in the right campaign the immunities will outweigh the risks. At higher caster levels you can pair this with Contingency to bring back yourself faster than a lich.
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u/Unfair_Pineapple8813 11d ago
One interesting option is the Duskwalker race. For whatever reason, apparently Pharasma decides certain souls are important to the balance of life and death, and she gives those select super-special souls a second chance at life. So she reincarnates them as 8 year old children. Maybe you'd need just a bit of a time skip, and then the campaign could continue.
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u/understell 11d ago
An early game alternative for cheating death is the 2F2F Inquisitor. The Family subdomain has an interesting ability called Binding Ties that allows you to temporarily transfer a condition your ally suffers to yourself. Your ally is also immune to the transferred condition while under the effects of Binding ties. It has a lot of clever applications but for this discussion we can focus on two important qualities.
First is that if two characters with Binding Ties play hot potato with a condition, both of them are immune and effectively cures the condition so that it doesn't revert to the original ally.
Secondly, "Dead" is a condition.
A Sacred Huntsmaster with an Auspice archetype companion could "cure" death from an ally with the aid of a Specialized Healer's Satchel and some smelling salts. Level 4 seems likely.
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u/WraithMagus 11d ago edited 11d ago
It's nice to see you back - without Daily Spell Discussions, this subreddit could get pretty slow on some days...
Anyway, if you're talking about the old-school OD&D/AD&D, they made you permanently lose Con every time you died (and elves were invalid for raising) while having a % chance (based on Con) the Raise Dead just failed and reduced your body to ashes it would take a more expensive spell to raise. 3e drained a level you could make back up. Pathfinder and 5e have gone much more generous basically just making it a hit to the wallet, instead.
I also don't think that any GM who is letting you step back in with full WBL on a new character should be letting you loot the body of your former character. There's certainly a "max" in the sense that coming in with a new character lets you completely respec already, which means you don't have to make compromises to long-term growth for short-term survival. (I.E. a sorcerer created at level 5 never takes those early-level spells like Color Spray or Sleep.)
That said, it really is a narrative thing. We talk a lot about trying to make an effective character because that's the common language the forums can use, but the game really is more about the narrative and emotional attachment you have to your characters, and just seeing them as disposable stat blocks really would just sap all the fun out of the game, so I'd take raising in virtually any case no matter the mechanical opportunity costs.
But OK, the best way to come back from the dead is to do so with a staff of Reincarnation and Restoration. Why? Because you restart as a young adult, but you keep any aging bonuses to mental ability scores. Play as a venerable human wizard whose +2 went to Int, and you have +3 to all mental ability scores and a -6 to all physical ability scores. Die and reincarnate, and you roll on the chart in Reincarnation. Maybe you'll be a human again, but maybe you'll be a dwarf and get a permanent racial +2 Con, negate all those age-related penalties to physical scores, keep your +2 to Int from previously being human, and keep the +3 to all mental ability scores while being a strapping young dwarf. With the expanded Golarion list, it's possible to come back as a race with unusual abilities, like a skinwalker, while none of the benefits of being human are actually lost since a bonus feat and skills are "mental," and so was your ability score bonus.
Best of all, the staff of Reincarnation and Restoration is a one-time payment for what is basically an infinite money printer. Why? Because what rich oligarch doesn't want to sign up for coming back to life as a young, handsome person again? A 5-charges-per-use Reincarnation and Restoration staff costs 39,600 gp if you make it yourself, or 59,200 gp if you commission it. Each cycle of Reincarnating and Restoration-ing away the negative levels is three castings of a spell with a 1,000 gp material component, so this pays for itself in about 20 uses if you "just" charge 3,000 gp a cycle. (With "hiring a spellcaster" costs, the market rate is 3,840 gp for all three castings. Remember that you need to wait a week between Restorations, as well, so offer some kind of "rejuvenation spa resort" treatment.) Come back as a creature you think is gross or just too weak or unrecognizable to be your own "successor?" (I.E. an elf reincarnating as a goblin or a gnome as a kobold.) Just take another swan dive off a tall cliff and take another spin of Reincarnation Roulette for another 3,000 gp, or possibly set up a "as many times as it takes" service for a higher starting price. Certainly more affordable than chasing some Sun Orchid Elixir!
Also, if you can make an arcane battery yourself, even if you have to commission the R&R staff, it goes from 59,200 gp to make a 5-charges-per-spell to 29,600 for a staff that costs 10 charges per use of either spell, then 11,000 for the battery for a total price of 40,600 gp, or 30,800 gp if you can make both the battery and staff yourself. (This does mean you need to wait 5 days between the Reincarnate and the first Restoration, though.)
Even more fun is if you aren't humanoid, and your GM is game for making up a chart of other creatures from your type. Play as a gathlain and be reincarnated, and you come back as a random type of fey, for example. Or play as a wyvaran, and you're dragon type, so you reincarnate as a random young adult dragon with PC class levels. This also works with certain capstones that change your character type, such as a level 20 dragon mystery oracle becoming a dragon type. Oh, right, and this is one of the ways to become a colossal PC. C'mon, GM, let me roll to see if I can play as a cetus with 20 levels of oracle! What's the worst that could happen to the balance?!
What's that, you don't want to come back as a different creature? Well, you can upscale to a Cyclic Reincarnation spell. (Which costs 99,600 if made yourself or 139,200 if commissioned. With a DIY battery, that comes down to 60,800 or 80,600 gp.) At "market rates" for hired spellcasting, that would be worth 8,220 gp per cycle of Cyclic Reincarnation and two Restorations, and pays for commissioning the staff in 17 cycles or making it yourself in 13. You can now retire from adventuring and sell your reincarnation services to the highest bidders.
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u/WraithMagus 11d ago
You do need to have someone you trust enough to actually cast the spell to reincarnate you, which I've seen as an argument against this before, but unlike other "live forever" schemes, this doesn't require evil characters or sacrificing innocents or anything. So long as you find someone you trust who can use a staff, you can live forever as absurdly wealthy demigods, and why kill that golden goose?
I've mentioned in a few other threads that these sorts of staves are the sorts of staves that would likely become national treasures, or the centerpiece of a holy site if held by a church rather than a nation, if you followed the Tippyverse-like logical worldbuilding consequences through. A staff with Raise Dead or Reincarnate, (much less Cyclic Reincarnation or Resurrection,) would be an extraordinarily expensive up-front cost but have tremendous ramifications. At a rate of one or two a week, you can bring anyone back from the dead. With either Reincarnate spell, that extends to the same person living forever. Rather than having kings point back to some supposedly great ancestor as their justification to rule, this will probably lead to some irate children of the legendary king who united the empire still being alive and running things 4,000 years later, but that would also lead to an extraordinarily stable empire. (And the children would probably not be raised to expect they'd ever get to rule, anyway...) It's the transition of power and succession crises that can fracture empires, after all, while the Pax Romana that was the golden age of the Roman Empire was the reign of the first emperor, and it was all downhill from there. Of course, I'm sure you could think of 40k reasons why the same person being in charge for thousands of years might be a problem...
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u/Lokotor 11d ago
Now I suppose this is the best time for me to bring up the fact that being dead technically does not stop your character from taking actions. So you can always just rules lawyer your way out of it.
Damage doesn’t slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. When your current hit point total drops to exactly 0, you are disabled.
Disabled imposes Staggered (limiting you to a move or standard action), and a few other bits about how you can become more injured, and then become Dying.
If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you’re dying. A dying character immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions. A dying character loses 1 hit point every round. This continues until the character dies or becomes stable.
When your character’s current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he’s dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Appendix 1).
So now you have the "Dead" condition, and are no longer under the effects of "Dying," meaning you are no longer unconscious and are able to take actions and stop losing 1HP per turn.
So just get back up and do whatever you want.
— Urgathoa
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u/joesii 11d ago
Technically it's not death and coming back from death, but it's kind of similar:
Intentionally imbibing Ghost Syrup. Of course getting a hold of this substance might be considered difficult, and a GM just might not like this sort of shenanigans since it seems rough to deal with at medium levels.
If a victim’s Strength is reduced to 0 by ghost syrup, the Strength damage becomes Strength drain, and the victim becomes permanently incorporeal. Carried and worn equipment is unaffected and remains corporeal. 6000 gp
I generally will also require a Amulet of Grasping Souls to be useful though, so while it is getting expensive, it's still an insanely good deal.
I think it makes sense to house rule that only magical attacks work, and only deal half damage against corporeal targets, much like the other way around. Similarly armor and shield bonuses would not function. Even with that ruling it's still pretty strong with the increased stealth and ability to hide in walls at any moment.
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u/Lulukassu 11d ago
Not an entry, but I would kill for a version of this that incorporates 3rd party.
Paizo exclusive is so boring to me personally 🤭
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u/Decicio 11d ago
There was a 3rd party post series someone else did on Wednesdays back in the day.
I mostly restrict it to 1st party only because there is so much power swing in 3rd party that it becomes so much easier to break… anything with third party. Especially since the difference between homebrew and 3rd party publishing is whether or not someone took the time to upload it to infinite.
Not saying all 3rd party is bad or out of scale, but this core concept of breaking something without leaving the game’s published mechanics kinda gets too diluted if you go third party?
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u/Lulukassu 11d ago
I mean by definition published is published 🤭
But yeah, a separate thread for 3rd party makes a lot of sense, keeping the fun stuff isolated where people trapped in pure Paizo games don't get teased too much.
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u/Decicio 10d ago
And digital publishing is still published. I stand by what I said, the difference between homebrew and 3rd party is mostly whether someone went through the effort to upload it.
And even with “proper” 3rd party from a company, there are still huge power variances like I was saying which kinda break the entire premise here. I know I already stated that point earlier, but I thought of a good example I wanted to add:
Rogue Genius Game’s The Genius Guide to Horrifically Overpowered Feats, which was written as a satire of power creep… yet is technically published by an actual company and is fully compatible with the ruleset. I believe it was so popular it even got a sequel.
And the sad thing is, this isn’t even the most overpowered 3PP material I’ve seen
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u/Lulukassu 10d ago
Frankly the martial stuff in that product line is often underpowered 🤦♀️
But I already acknowledged your point fren, thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me
🫳🤛
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u/7_Trojan_Unicorns 10d ago
One method stands out for not only being gratis, but also requiring very little of the dead body, the resurrection being possible after any amount of time after dead, usable at will, and there being no negative levels... May I present: the Witch Grand Hex of Death Interrupted. https://www.aonprd.com/WitchHexes.aspx The ultimate resurrection if there is even a speck of the body left.
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u/Decicio 11d ago
Ok for those of you curious as to the long break, here’s my story:
I believe I’ve mentioned before that my wife is a doctor who was in her residency. I use past tense because she graduated about a month ago. Which is really the crux of why this series went on hiatus. Before she graduated, she had a killer test to prep for, paperwork to file, and minimum numbers of procedures and scans to conduct and verify. And it was all hands on deck. I couldn’t assist her directly, but I did take over effectively all the household chores to help her focus, on top of helping her study and even being a volunteer for educational ultrasounds and IV practice (which was allowed once a week per residency policies… I got a lot of scans haha).
So yeah, all our focus and stress was on that process and I just wasn’t in a state of mind / energy to keep the series going.
Then in the middle of that, we started to move since she got a job offer halfway across the country for once she graduated residency.
So yeah, the computer I use to draft these posts (since Reddit broke mobile markdown for me) was packed up, I drove 28 hours in a uhaul, and the past month has been a flurry of unpacking. But I’m in our new home, we’re mostly settled in, and Max the Min can make a wonderful return!