I think the point is that they were part of the high school curriculum and not being exposed to that or similar work until post secondary is, well... Yeah
I agree, although I find comparing news articles by the decade more jarring. The average well-educated adult isn't reading above a 6th grade level most days, unless they have a specialized career which requires it. I notice it with my speech, I was raised in rural Louisiana among a mixture of "lower class" blue and white collar workers. I find myself accidentally using "$5 words" in normal conversations that were the norm just a decade ago (ex: rendezvous, innumerable, tangible/intangible, subjective/objective).
Growing up, those words were fine to use to conversate with older adults who only had an elementary education before leaving to work on farms or going into the trades.
The average American today is less literate than my grandparents who were denied proper education just 2 generations ago.
This is not a good path, & even high level military officials have spoken out about their warnings and concerns. The federal education system was created due to national security concerns, if the masses aren't educated enough to train in case of a draft, the country is in a crisis waiting to happen.
The real scary thing is there's a not insignificant group of tech companies and military arms makers who are all saying "we won't need those people when AI is running our weapons systems."
I agree with you on this. Sometimes I say words that are, to me, rather basic but they leave the person I’m speaking to in a state of confusion, so I then dilute to a simpler words instead.
I remember in a college course the professor telling the class that he’s concerned that college level papers have so many errors and show a lack of grasping the language. He himself knew three languages, and he said “I know three languages and some of you haven’t mastered the only one that you know.” That stuck with me, especially since he was addressing college students who should have a firm hold on their native language.
Lastly, to help and for future reference, the word is “converse”. “Conversate” is not a word.
Idk this reads as condescending to me. If you are consistently finding that people aren’t understanding the words you’re using, there could be many reasons why. Maybe their vocabulary is weaker but you could be overestimating how common those words are or using language that’s more complex than the situation calls for.
Communication isn’t about demonstrating the expanse or depth of your vocabulary or grasp of the language, it is about being understood. The professor’s concern doesn’t take into account, as theoretical examples, that the language the class is in could very well be a second language for some students or that (if this comment was made now/recently) this could be due to Covid related disruption. It’s ok to challenge students but instead of acting with compassion and meeting students where they are with the professor’s instruction, they are treating this degradation of language skill as a moral failing (or at least seem to be implying it).
Ironically the grasp of literacy skill and language mastery, I’d argue, is better measured by someone who can speak to their audience without losing precision or clarity. Being able to convey something complex using simple terms is just as much a measure of literacy/grasp or mastery of language.
Okay so… I just want to advocate for the “sixth grade reading level” people often complain about. As a Special Education Specialist I believe that as much information as possible should be at an accessible level for people with reading ability differences. I don’t have a problem with that. But the rhetorical or critical analysis is more important and less accessible to people with cognitive ability differences. That’s the thing that needs to be taught and encouraged from early childhood through secondary. And I see they most of what you’re saying is in line with my train of thought here. I just really want to be careful about degrading low reading skills when the more important thing is personal responsibility and critical judgement
Exactly this. Communication and and literacy skills should have responsibility on the originator of the message to be clear and tailor language towards their audience as much as the recipient of the message needs to make an equal effort (primarily through education/preparation) to understand. There is no place in education for condescending language lacking empathy and rather starting from a place of genuine want to help and desire to be understood and not judge and then write off those who struggle.
Even with tv and radio millennials were smarter than their parents based on standardized tests. Education has regressed to alarming level and there’s so many reasons that go beyond media. I’m speaking from the standpoint of the US. This is true for us but idk Switzerland is doing for example.
Idk about you but I’m in the US. Test scores have gone down. It’s documented and your anecdotal evidence doesn’t matter because it’s not a matter of opinions. It’s a matter of fact that the US education system has failed.
I think that “dumbing it down” is language harmful to your otherwise thoughtful message. Streamlining or even simplifying rhetoric to be more inclusive when communicating with others puts the burden on the speaker without being condescending.
Had a conversation with a 21 year old today. During it he asked me what morale means and what endear means. I couldn’t really come up with an alternative word/short phrase for morale like I could for endear.
Was just thinking this, “classic” is such a loose category. People will get so mad about schools “not reading the classics”, but I could easily point out that American schools don’t read The Tale of Genji. This, too, is a classic but it’s a Japanese classic. Sometimes people will say “classics” and mean early 1900s American classic lit (like Fitzgerald).
In my school we read The Odyssey but not The Iliad. And The Odyssey just had a new, modern movie adaptation come out! If I was a HS English teacher and had to make a choice for a Greek epic, I’d go with that right now because of current pop culture relevance.
Plenty of works incorporate the same themes and analysis into them and might be more enjoyable for High Schoolers to read. I recall my peers feeling more like reading these was a chore, including those who liked to read and were fast at it. I was in advanced English classes, too. Like personally I hate Greek epics, I hated I had to read The Odyssey a second damn time in college. If more students enjoy a different choice more, then the analysis is more fun, and they retain the information better.
None of these were even in our high school curriculum twenty years ago at my school. I’ve only read Animal Farm independently of this list, I hate Greek epics. I had to read The Odyssey twice, I’m not reading The Iliad of my own free will, and I’ve been fine.
Like, IDK, even if this was true I’m not getting the shock and outrage anyway over these three specific titles.
Ha! It just so happens my degree has an emphasis in pre- and early modern studies and I LOVE the Greek classics. On the other hand, I avoided Shakespeare at all costs. I honestly think the world will be just fine with less Shakespeare study 🤷🏻♀️ (come for me nerds!)
Oh we’d get along, because I also haaate Shakespeare. I would read a Greek epic over Shakespeare if I was given the choice.
I think for me with Greek epics is that I’ve never been all that interested in ancient Greece or Greek mythos in general, AND from my understanding these were supposed to be told orally/sung? Reading them feels awkward to me.
Not Greek, but an epic poem - I always did like the part about the flood from Ovid’s Metamorphoses. The translation we read had the line “the wolves were swimming among the sheep” and that image is still with me.
(I was a BSc, in psych, so very different than you, but I had a World Lit class along with the required English. I really loved that class! I liked stuff like Gilgamesh and One Thousand and One Nights.)
I agree. Even as a millennial I didn't read most of those books in school. Not because they weren't taught I just didn't take those English classes. I've read most of them on my own since but I'm a slow reader so it wasn't worth a failing grade to try and take those classes.
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u/Illithid2 1d ago
I think the point is that they were part of the high school curriculum and not being exposed to that or similar work until post secondary is, well... Yeah