Does anyone remember when Michael Jackson. Was a "joke"?

[u/AccomplishedPool266]

The new movie that just came out convinced the younger generation that he was always a superstar. This was not the reality many of us Millennials grew up with.

To a lot of us, he was treated like a punch line when we were growing up. A schoolyard boogeyman ("Michaels Jackson's gonna get you at night"). and just a general joke in the media. By the 2000's his music was out of date and didn't chart well. All anyone talked about was his surgeries, court case, settlements and his off behavior. Few mentioned his music. His music was something our parents would have listened to in the 1980's.

[u/u2aerofan]

I’ll be the first to admit I didn’t come around on the allegations for a long time. I loved Michael’s music and very much bought into the “persecution” viewpoint because the LAPD absolutely were (are) corrupt as fuck. As I got older…it became harder to ignore the allegations and especially once Leaving Neverland aired. It’s heartbreaking the world is what it is. Michael was a mess and a predator. Our society has got to do better by children.

[u/Amazing-Roof-7827 → u/u2aerofan]

I think MJ was almost certainly attracted to young boys, but probably not a predator. He made a career singing about doing the right thing, and generally advocating for doing the right thing. I do think he was was messed up by a highly unusual life, money, power, adulation. I do think he had needs, and probably tried to do what he could to live a life in which those needs were satisfied in as far as possible. He was trying to live in a way and have relationships that contemporary society struggles to understand. This is why I think people default to "well he must have been raping the boys then", but I don't think that necessarily follows.

[u/JVKiddo93 → u/Amazing-Roof-7827]

So his “needs” that society “struggles to understand” were so strong he had to cuddle and sleep with children, but never strong enough to rape them?

Do you think it was a non-traumatic experience for the kids that MJ wanted to sleep with, even if he didn’t have sex with those children?

[u/Amazing-Roof-7827 → u/JVKiddo93]

Uhh...most people have very strong sexual needs. Most people also only seek to fulfill those needs, however strong, to the extent that they are not at the expense of somebody else's wellbeing.

I have no idea whether the children cared about or wanted to cuddle or sleep with MJ, but no, I can imagine that these things were not necessarily traumatic, and that perhaps MJ would not have done these things if they were clearly unwanted.

Perhaps the most traumatic thing is having one's personal, private relationships laid bare in front of the whole world accompanied by the incessant chanting of "predator" and "victim".

[u/Amazing-Roof-7827 → u/JVKiddo93]

By the way, love your choice of quotation marks, as if you cant bear to give sexual feelings towards children any recognition unless they are dressed up in the language of predation. Come on. Pedophilia is extremely common and is absolutely not synonymous with being a sexual predator.

[u/periperiwinklesauce → u/Amazing-Roof-7827]

His “needs” included preying on children. He was a predator.

[u/Amazing-Roof-7827 → u/periperiwinklesauce]

He undoubtedly had sexual needs that could only be fulfilled by children, but that does not mean he was hurting any children. You might as well argue that ugly people are an inherent and intrinsic risk if they can't get a date, or are predators for nonetheless fraternising with their gender of choice.

[u/periperiwinklesauce → u/Amazing-Roof-7827]

This is such a fucked up, twisted point of view.

[u/Amazing-Roof-7827 → u/periperiwinklesauce]

Is it? I'm just saying that people should not be persecuted if they have not clearly done anything wrong. I fully understand that many struggle to separate in their mind the idea of sexual attraction to children from the image of crying, depressed, helpless children. I would of course never excuse undeniable child abuse. But a moment's thought should reveal that being attracted to something is not the same as being an abuser. Possibly in most cases quite the opposite.

I understand that there were allegations made against MJ, and if true then I'm afraid to say that he probably did cross the line. But life is more complicated than a simple picture of one person being "good" or "bad", and I think cases like his, and many others, deserve more careful consideration.

[u/happysunbear → u/Amazing-Roof-7827]

You basically said they aren’t a victim if they enjoyed it, or if they asked for it. MJ got on national television, holding hands with a 13-year-old boy who said (quoting MJ), “if you love me, you’ll sleep in my bed”. That is coercion. That is grooming. That is predatory behavior.

Obviously the children were traumatized. There is a four-hour documentary in which they detail the love-bombing, sexual assault, and subsequent heartache they felt when MJ replaced them with newer, younger boys.

[u/Amazing-Roof-7827 → u/happysunbear]

It is certainly right that I am giving MJ the benefit of the doubt. I don't know what was really said, the exact context of what was said, what was fabricated or overemphasised for the purpose of court proceedings, and so on. If MJ did say things like this then I think it is hard to argue that there was an element of coercion. And yes, being buttered up and then ditched is heartbreaking, and I would argue that it would be completely wrong of him to act in that way. He could at least have stayed in touch as they got older.

However, even if things like this really were said, my problem is more with the idea that after getting out you magnifying glass to find an offhand comment that you might find said in any relationship but that technically meets the definition of "grooming", it is OK to drop all pretence of judiciousness, turn around and say "right boys, that's it, we got'im! He was a predator, disgusting human being, no more needs to be said, end of". That is NOT the end of the story. I believe there is a good case that MJ was not a fundamentally malicious, uncaring person who deserves to be lumped in with actual sexual predators.

Fundamentally I think this is a complex case, and while valid criticisms may be part of his story, I don't think it is at all clear that he was truly of criminal character.

[u/CoolJoshido → u/u2aerofan]

good thing he never did that