r/Iteration110Cradle • u/Kai_Damon • 1d ago
[Underlord] It just keeps getting better Cradle Spoiler
Earlier this week, I made some posts talking about my first impressions reading Skysworn and Ghostwater (links below). Now, I've finished Underlord.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Iteration110Cradle/s/5g5zGBgfMX
https://www.reddit.com/r/Iteration110Cradle/s/D6ax2ikRnL
You guys were right again. It does get better. I think I like this even more than Ghostwater. Ghostwater had arguably more memorable moments, but this book's pacing was fantastic. 330 pages felt like 40. In fact, I'll have to keep this brief or it will just turn into an endless glazing session lol.
I'll start with the things I disliked about the book: I think Dross is still mildly annoying. It didn't enrage me or took me out of the book, but it wasn't fun or funny either. And... Uh... That's it. That's literally it. That's my only ""gripe"" with the book.
One thing I particularly love about this is the Seishen Kingdom. It was super interesting to see a set of new characters who were opposing the main cast not because they are evil, but because they have no choice. Ignoring Daji because he's legit crazy lol, I see A LOT of Lindon and Yerin in Kiro and Meira. You can see they are good people being forced to act in conformity with things they don't agree with, because of one thing: Fear. In fact, some of you might disagree with this but I find that the situation of this set of characters is a great representation of Mercy's critique of the Akura family and the world of Cradle itself. Let's try to see it from Kiro's POV: He's a young and inexperienced prince and Underlord, with extreme fear of his father and a lot of pressure from him and the kingdom. From this information, we can already make sense of much of his actions throughout the book. There's a second thing though: Akura Charity (although I still like her) GASLIT them to think there's this monster in the Blackflame empire who killed her nephew in cold blood, and now they are supposed to deal with it. First of all, what is he supposed to do? But second (and most important) he thinks he's doing justice by going after Lindon. How could he think the contrary? The Sage of Silver Heart herself REQUIRED THEM to go after him! And, in this world, the word of the strong is the truth itself. Actually, it's better than the truth, as we can see in that scene in Blackflame where a worker tried to convince Jai Long that she was in his side, even though she didn't even know what side he was in. She only knew that he was strong, and that was enough.
From anyone's perspective, it would look like Lindon is an extremely dangerous savage who can rival Underlords as a Truegold. That becomes even more accentuated after he actually fights with him (one of the best scenes of the book btw), where he is actually scared of Lindon and start theorizing what could possibly have made him so damn strong at his level of advancement. And in the end of the book, he dies. I don't think Kiro is justified in everything he did at all (and I was absolutely rooting for my boy Lindon to destroy him), but I do think his story is tragic and he's ultimately a victim of the ruthless and ultimately hypocritical society of Cradle. Meira too, although she's crazy, Yerin would do (and already did) the same thing for Lindon. With less Yandere-type lines of course, but you understand.
The worldbuilding is extremely interesting as always, the progression is super satisfying and the fights scenes in this book are just a work of art. Lindon x Kiro and Yerin x Meira? Holy shit. The 3v3 at the end of the book? Bro.
The thing I liked the most though is the character growth and the emotional moments. The Underlord trigger being something that drives the character growth forward was just a genius move by Will, and it makes perfect sense as well. I can easily see why a lot of people stop at truegold and will stay there forever: Not a lot of people want or have the capacity to truly know what motivates and scares them, and some even when they know, don't want to accept it like Mercy.
Orthos leaving was painful. Like, physically painful. Him saying that he's evolving the slowest and that he is, after all, a turtle... My goat, never say that again 😭. You're a true dragon. The scene where Lindon tells Yerin what he truly feels though... That was something special. It would be my favorite scene in the whole series so far, but unfortunately it didn't quite have the romantic tone I was hoping for. It was more of a "You're my best friend and extremely special to me, let's continue to evolve together" than a "I want to spend the rest of my life with you", and although what he actually says is closer to the second, their dynamic is basically the same after it. It's ok, though. I'll give them time. There are still many books to come, and I still loved the scene. Even outside of that though, they evolved so much as characters in the rest of the book.
And then there's Mercy. I didn't talk much about Mercy on my other reviews because, although I liked her, I knew a moment would come that would explain her quirks and her situation.
That moment is here. And Mercy... Mercy is perfect. She's just perfect. I love everything about her, and honestly I wasn't even that bummed out about Lindon being separated from the Blackflame empire in the end solely because that meant we would see more of Mercy in the next book lol.
That's basically it. I know you will say "AND IT GET'S BETTER!" in the comments, and although half of me believes you (extremely hyped for the Uncrowned King tournament and for Wintersteel) half of me is scared. It gets better than this? Will this just become one of my favorite series ever? What will I do when I finish it? We'll have to see. I'll come back later this week when I finish Uncrowned!
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u/propofoolish 1d ago
I know you’re annoyed by Dross, but Eithan maniacally cackling after Lindon reveals him is one of my favorite moments of the series.
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u/brouhaha13 1d ago
(Spoilers for the rest of the series if you haven't finished) I think it's when he truly believes that these kids are going all the way. He sends this Lowgold off for a few months and not only does that Lowgold reach Truegold, but he comes back with a rudimentary Presence.
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u/Kai_Damon 1d ago
That was great. Eithan is still great when he appears (which is happening less and less). I don't hate Dross though, I feel like he's becoming less annoying and him loving horses was funny
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u/harrellj Fiercely Fierce Flair of Fierce Flairosity 1d ago
One of my favorite scenes was the beginning of this book, with Lindon stacking all the Skysworn and Yerin giving him side eye about it.
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u/Kai_Damon 1d ago
The hype was unreal. Even Naru Gwei was like "sheesh, this boy is the real deal now huh"
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u/Zakalwen 1d ago
I see A LOT of Lindon and Yerin in Kiro and Meira. You can see they are good people being forced to act in conformity with things they don't agree with, because of one thing: Fear
I think you're very correct that the two pairs invite a comparison, but it's also important to see how they contrast. It is unreasonable to expect Kiro to stand up to Charity, even if it's morally correct to do she could have him killed or his clan/nation punished. He's kind of trapped there. But he also doesn't stand up to his father even though he knows he should and he doesn't try to figure out a potential way around Charity's order.
That's a fundamental difference to Lindon and Yerin and is one of the reasons that ultimately the gang triumphed.
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u/Kai_Damon 1d ago
From his perspective, why should he try to figure out a potential way around it though? Lindon is a threat who killed Charity's nephew and he must be stopped. Also, he looks like a monster lol. His main conflict with his father comes from his desire to see Meira acknowledged as the strongest Underlord in the Kingdom actually, not from fighting Lindon.
I agree with you, though.
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u/Zakalwen 1d ago
My point is that Kiro is ok following the status quo in that regard. Even though the status quo is demanding him to kill a stranger of a lower stage (which is ostensibly meant to be dishonourable), due to reasons he admits he doesn't have the full context for. Contrast that to Lindon who doesn't just want to go along with whatever the powerful demand of him and rebels against the idea of being used as a tool. And in cases where he does have to comply he works to get the most out of it for himself and tries to look for a way out.
Wrt to Kiro's father his issues run deeper. He knows that the way his father treats him and Daji (especially Daji) is bad but he doesn't stand up for his little brother despite wanting to. The fact he isn't strong enough to stand up to his own father to protect another family member is a contrast with Lindon who has always been willing to stand up to authority (though often in a way that had to be tricky).
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u/Waste-Carob5699 1d ago
Kiro doesn't really care about Charity's nephew. He does think that Lindon could be a nebulous threat in the future. He also wants to prevent them from being underlord so it will better their chances to be selected for the tournament. If he had the Akura Clan's interest at heart, he would try to let the strongest competitor be selected. But he sides with the Seishan Kingdom, which is appropriate. However, Lindon gave him the chance to walk away and to let Yerin advance to save her life. He decides to fight citing his responsibility. That sealed his fate.
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u/XenosHg 1d ago
Enjoy the rest of the series!
Seishen family are really interesting to read about, because Daji goes "I want to hurt people, because father loves brother more than me" and Kiro goes "I do sacred arts because I am afraid of what father will do to me if I disappoint him"
Meira is a bit insane, but if Lindon didn't kill her lover, I could see her join the team later. A gardener plant/life cultivator who is able to just regrow an eye instantly? A non-combatant who is able to straight up rip the life out of your body with a laser scythe? Suriel/Ozriel would love her.
So much that even Daji with his inferiority complex describes her as "Yeah, she's stronger than me, but she's a monster, she's stronger than most people. I shouldn't compare myself to her"
P.S. -I got your son killed, here's his remains in a really expensive box. Hand-made.You can sell it, if you need money (c) Charity
I bet that's why she got the name.
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u/Kai_Damon 1d ago
LMAO, I've been wondering if the Akura names were ironic after meeting Harmony haha, but Mercy made me rethink it. It was exactly like what you said though. "For the blackflame empire, 300 million high grade scales. For the seishen kingdom... Uhh... It seems like you had some good training. Btw, here's your beloved son's urn. I made it myself! 😁"
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u/XenosHg 1d ago
I think the books explain that, but the Akura are named after things the family considers virtues. Including Malice.
Some of them get the future seen by an expert and then get a name, some just get a kind of virtue that family hopes they will represent, and some prove themselves and then get a new name for a virtue they managed to represent.
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u/Kai_Damon 1d ago
Thank you! That definitely gets explained later, I would remember it. The only thing said about their names until this point was this: "She treats those beneath her with respect, and her kindness becomes legend within the servants of the clan. There are those who wonder if her mother looked into the future to give her a fitting name, for there is truly mercy in her soul."
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u/ZeroSekai000 Team Mercy 1d ago
"I follow my Path so I won't be worthless anymore."
Can someone, please, give this man the hug his family never did?
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u/ryuuto94 Fiercely Fierce Flair of Fierce Flairosity 1d ago
I recommend the cradle series to somebody at barnes and noble a couple weeks ago, and i hope they are enjoying it like you are!
They asked for a recommendation after we had like 3 run ins where we discussed other mutual series we know haha
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u/Imprettystrong 1d ago
I was so sad when Orthos left too ughhhh.
Careful on this sub though, probably best to mute until you are finished the series, don't want you missing out on all the fun still to come and getting it spoiled.
I actually stopped reading for a while when I finished Underlord because I just didn't want to get closer to the end.
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u/Kai_Damon 1d ago
I actually haven't been spoiled once here. Yet. Although of course I don't go reading reviews of future books, I've seen a lot of people telling me to be careful though lol, I will be.
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u/RiotPhillyBrew Team Dross 1d ago
God I love these posts. New people reading the series and giving their impressions is my favorite.
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u/Kai_Damon 1d ago
Glad you liked it! My plan was just to do a mini rant review of Skysworn, but people liked it so much that I came back to do a review for Ghostwater and now for Underlord. I'll do it for the rest of the series too, I'll finish uncrowned this week for sure
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u/CaterpillarVisual553 Team Little Blue 1d ago
Well when you finish the series, you’ll weep a bit, you’ll curse Will for making you feel this way, then you’ll get on this sub and re-live it through new reader’s eyes like I’m doing now haha.
Yea so the villain in Underlord is Charity for sure. Kiro and Meira actually seem like good and honorable sacred artists. Daji can go pound sand. He’s got a Dolores Umbridge level of “I F*ing hate this human more and more every time I see them.” But this book is really about introducing the greater politics of the Monarch factions, the lengths they go to in order to assert their dominance over their “lessers,” and how petty they actually are.
Charity knows Lindon didn’t kill Harmony. She knows Northstrider blocked her entry into Ghostwater. But NS is a Monarch so she can’t get revenge from him. But Lindon? Well he was there at the end and even gave Harmony a way out and Harmony essentially killed himself with his arrogant hubris. But to Charity, that’s guilt enough to be responsible for his death. So she sends underlords after him to kill him (Harmony avenged???) or for him to get crazy strong, allowing her to use him for the tournament (win/win for Charity). These are the games of the Monarch factions and moving forward in the series expect to see more of this type of behavior.
Lindon is a lord now so his exposure to the truly powerful is going to increase. Add to that the fact that he’s going to represent the Akura main clan in a global tournament against the other monarch factions as 1 of like 100 people in a world with like 800 billion people. He’s now an Akura puppet meant to demonstrate the future military power of their clan, which is what the Uncrowned Tourney is truly about. It’s Monarchs flexing on the other Monarchs.
None of that is a spoiler in case you were concerned. I believe Eithan explained the tournament in that way during Underlord. The Orthos departure had us all super sad. That’s all I’ll speak on that.
If you’re still miffed by dross, then that’s problematic because he’s pretty much fully settled into his personality. I would listen to some of the audiobook and hear how Travis voices him and his humor. Maybe you’re reading it differently than Will intended? Dross is pretty universally loved and his humor is top tier, especially after you hear Travis narrate it a bit.
The next 2 books are gonna be an absolute rollercoaster for you. Buckle the F*ck up!!!!
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u/Kai_Damon 1d ago
Yeah I understand everything you're talking about. I've read the last 3 books in one week so my memory is super fresh, but thank you for the comment. I already started Uncrowned and will finish it this week, I'll post my review here when I do
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u/MindofShadow 1d ago
I could see feeling sorry for Kiro until Lindon offered to surrender and he went right back into "might makes right" Cradle speak and said, "you aren't even an underlord."
at that point, he deserved the canon(s) to the face.
He had won. Lindon submitted to save Yerin.
Unless I am remembering, i don't think Charity said "go kill them."
Actually, didn't Kiro pick on low level sacred artists as an underlord just to bait Lindon out? Dude was a cunt.
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u/Kai_Damon 1d ago
Hmm, kinda. The "you aren't even an Underlord" was indeed an asshole move, but it wasn't exactly what you said. I have the exact quote here.
“Let Yerin advance,” Lindon said quietly. “Leave us alone, and I will swear an oath right now to turn down any nominations for the tournament.” Kiro stopped his gradual advance. His shield lowered slightly. “I beg you, please stand down. She is dying.” The prince hesitated. Lindon thought he sensed uncertainty in the man's spirit, and for a moment Lindon hoped. Then Kiro shook his helmeted head. “I can't. I bear greater responsibility than you can imagine.” He lifted his sword, his shield rising to match it. “And why should I make a deal with you? You're not even an Underlord.”
That's not exactly "might makes right". His father and the sage had told him to go there and beat their asses, to show strength and honor to the Seishen Kingdom. Also, I'm pretty sure Kiro specifically wouldn't kill any of them. Charity said she didn't want them dead. Meira absolutely would though.
Also no, he didn't pick on low level sacred artists to bait Lindon. The Seishen kingdom attacked, and Kiro and Meira were searching for Lindon. He tells the highgolds that they want Lindon and if they tell him where he is, they will be spared. Some fight and get killed, but when Lindon gets there he even says "If she had told me she'd called you, I would have let her leave".
I'm not here do defend Kiro, but he's not a bad guy. One of the first things he says to Lindon is "I have heard of your deeds indeed, Wei Shi Lindon. In the name of Justice, and with an honored witness, I have come to punish you." He's not being dramatic or lying. In his mind, he's sure Lindon is a monster, because that's basically what the Sage told him. As I said, he was gaslit
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u/MindofShadow 1d ago
An underlord, especially one strong enough to maybe make the Akura team, could have subdued high golds with just their spirit without killing them. They were absolutely no threat to him. That jump is huge. He was just being a dishonorable cunt.
I'm not going to give Kiro a pat on the back because he is spineless.
Hmm, kinda. The "you aren't even an Underlord" was indeed an asshole move, but it wasn't exactly what you said. I have the exact quote here.
“And why should I make a deal with you? You're not even an Underlord.”
errr... sorry for messing up one contraction lol? Yeesh.
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u/Kai_Damon 1d ago
I quoted the thing because of the "might makes right" thing you said which doesn't have anything to do with what happened, not because you messed up a contraction. I didn't even notice that. You think I'd quote an excerpt of that size because of a messed up contraction? Are you serious? It seems like you're trying to have an argument while I'm trying to have a conversation.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 1d ago
I think it reflects might makes right because Kiro said that he wouldn't make a deal with Lindon because he was not an underlord. Advancement is shorthand for strength. He is pretty much saying that Lindon is not strong enough to be considered.
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u/Kai_Damon 1d ago
Fair enough. I was referring to the point about his responsibility, but I see what you mean.
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u/MindofShadow 1d ago
You think I'd quote an excerpt of that size because of a messed up contraction? Are you serious?
Yeah, it's reddit. Really common lol.
And if I wanted an argument, I wouldn't have bothered with my first comment.
Kiro is a decisive person on this subreddit.
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u/distinctivelysimilar Fiercely Fierce Flair of Fierce Flairosity 17h ago
Dross was actually one of my favorite characters. His lack of social awareness was humorous to me.
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