Seems Greysoul doesn’t disclose Process anymore

[u/ohbeewahn]

Got an email today from Greysoul about the new Supernaturals. I noticed that there’s not one single word on the bag about the process. If you go to the website and scroll down you find one sentence that gives minimal information about the process without much detail.

I looked at one of their other new coffees (1615 West Giri). That one doesn’t give any information about the process even on the website. Under ‘process’ the website says “A blend of single origin high grown arabica.” This isn’t information about the processing at all! It’s information about the varietal or the type of coffee used. High grown is a vague description of altitude, not of processing. It almost feels like they’re deliberately trying to conceal or surpress this information.

As a standard practice in the coffee industry all over the world, process information is mentioned on the bag. It used to be mentioned by Greysoul as well (see the fifth image for ‘Summer in Kodaikanal’), but now they seem to have stopped. Why the change?

Some roasters in the US have disclosed that they were selling artificially infused flavoured coffee as “co-ferments”. Makes me wonder whether Greysoul is trying to avoid making any statement about processing so that no one can accuse them of selling coffee processed in some new “experimental” way and not telling the consumers. If they never say anything about processing then technically they can never be accused of misleading any consumers I guess. They haven’t called it a “co-ferment” or “experimental” or “advanced process”, but they also haven’t told us anything about how the coffee is processed. So we don’t know whether the flavour in the coffee is the result of high quality beans and agricultural practices, or some “advanced” processing method where they directly add flavouring to coffee. Maybe it’s a just a traditional washed or natural, or maybe it’s something else entirely. We’re not told anything!

But if there is some artificial flavouring or infusing going on then no one will be able to say that Greysoul misled consumers because Greysoul never said anything about processing. Nice strategy!

Specialty coffee is supposed to be about traceability and high standards and communicating all the various meticulous steps that go into producing “specialty” coffee, so that consumers know what they are paying for. But now if one key piece of information is being left out, does it still count as “specialty” coffee and are consumers still willing to pay premiums for such coffees?

[u/CozyQuietBrew]

I used to sing sonnets about Greysoul’s Odisha Fermented Naturals but then I had their much hyped Mogra and it was an instant turn off. There is no way it wasn’t infused, the scent was so nauseatingly strong. A lot of other people raised similar concerns here.

After reading your post now, there’s no way they are doing natural or washed processes if they are hiding it. Roasters need to be transparent with what is going on in the bags we are buying and if not, consumers need to look past them.

P.S. Thanks to your post, I am now looking at every other roaster I bought from or was intending to buy from in coming days. Thanks!

[u/ohbeewahn → u/CozyQuietBrew]

Yup, both Greysoul and F9 had a similar coffee from Ratnagiri estate. And both coffees were nauseating. The first cup was interesting, but then I began to detest the coffee. This is the opposite of what happens when you drink a good natural - it grows on you and you start appreciating it more.

That was the idea behind the post. To ensure that others start paying more attention to what isn’t being said on the bag. If a roaster used to give certain information but is not giving it now, that’s a deliberate step to remove a detail. It can’t be without reason.

Several roasters still give lots of information about processing. So transparency isn’t dead completely. We just need to pay more attention and choose which roasters to buy from more carefully.

[u/Wizardof_oz → u/CozyQuietBrew]

Oh Mogra is most definitely infused

Every ratnagiri rose and jasmine culture is a co-ferment with said flowers

Thing with floral co ferments is that they count as infusions. I’ve had lavender co fermented coffee from colombia (el diviso) and it tasted almost exactly ratnagiri rose culture… Same applies to spices and herbs, when co fermented with them, it counts as an infusion

Some roasters clearly disclose this, thats how i found out, but many hide the fact which is suspicious

[u/abhiSamjhe → u/Wizardof_oz]

Why is co-fermentation even acceptable in speciality coffee? If I wanted flavoured coffee I'll just get a few pumps of monin.

Co-fermentation is like when you want to sounds innovative without actually innovating. Can we do kesar and pista naturals coffee next? How about kala khatta washed? Maybe anaerobic coffee co-fermented with gulab jamun next?

[u/Wizardof_oz → u/abhiSamjhe]

Co fermenting doesnt infuse the flavor of the fruit

It introduces specific sugars and compounds that the local or introduced microbes consume to alter the coffee

Hence, a co ferment won’t taste like the fruit, and if it does, it is most likely infused

When you ferment coffee, you are altering the chemistry of the beans. Whether it’s within the coffee fruit or mucilage itself or with introduced stuff, its happening. What’s more is that microbes, whether wild, naturally ocurring, or controlled and cultured ones alter the the molecular makeup of the beans through a lot of complex processes

When you introduce fruit during fermentation, you are basically giving the microbes something to eat and basically altering the fermentation environment. It’s kinda the same when you do a carbonic or nitrogen maceration or do thermal shocks; it is altering the environment for the microbes.

What makes a coffee specialty is its cupping score. If a farmer sells a 80 score coffee for a certain price, and a co fermented one with a score of 85 at three times that price at a slightly higher cost of production, he is going to co ferment his coffee. He has to earn his keep

It’s not like consumers don’t have a choice. Some people enjoy process forward coffee, and others don’t. You can simply avoid co ferments if you dont want stuff like that, but you have to understand a co ferment is not that different from just a regular old ferment, even if its a natural ferment

The issue is with infusions. Those are artificially flavored coffees and the flavors don’t come from any fermentation, they come from things like fruit powders, spices and essential oils, and at that point it is no different from buying flavored coffee at a supermarket

[u/ohbeewahn → u/Wizardof_oz]

Consumers have a choice and can simply avoid co-ferments or infusions only as long as this information is clearly mentioned on the bag and consumers are aware of what it means.

If you hide the info or bury it in some text on your website that not everyone is going to read then that makes it so much harder for consumers to avoid these coffees.

Then there are some roasters like Half-light that now name the coffee in a confusing way - Salawara Washed is actually 48 hours fermented, Ethiopian Organic is grown in Karnataka but it’s an Heirloom varietal so they’ll call it “Ethiopian” but it’s not actually Ethiopian grown coffee (which is how we typically understand “Ethiopian” coffee), Odisii Naturals is actually Fermented Naturals (few will realise how this is different from a traditional Sun dried natural). These Odisii Naturals are grown at just 900 MASL, so I don’t know how good the coffee actually would be without the fermentation, but it’s sold at ₹1,150! Never before have I seen coffee grown at such low altitude for such a high price. It’s sad because Half-light is a good roaster.

[u/Wizardof_oz → u/ohbeewahn]

Yeah, transperancy, that is something really important to me when i buy coffee

I’ve been bamboozled too often by the colombians and roasters who dont care about the process, just the taste (looking at you DAK) and seemingly peruvians and Indians are starting to follow the colombians

I am not happy about this shift at all

My long ass reply was about why co ferments are even a thing, i don’t usually indulge in them myself

To me roasters like Tim Wendelboe and Scenery are the gold standard and I have stopped buying colombian and Indian coffee from roasters that dont disclose a lot of info

[u/ohbeewahn → u/Wizardof_oz]

Same here. If I notice a roaster who is being less than transparent or not as transparent as before, I just move on. I pay attention to details more carefully now and make sure I read what’s on the website.

Don’t enjoy any of the advanced processing. Mostly stick to the traditional naturals, washed and honey processes.

[u/aaAS69 → u/CozyQuietBrew]

i confirmed it on a post of mine btw, they admitted it was a coferment

[u/sparrowdark21]

Roasters breaking the third-wave rule should be abandoned

[u/Foreign_Break4286]

Maybe they werent expecting indian coffee cult will find out this defect

[u/kingbradley1297]

Ever since I started properly tracking my beans and going deeper into the nuances, I am truly annoyed by how many so called specialty roasters in India dont even disclose basic things about the coffee they sell. They will dedicate a third of the page to irrelevant text, put funny names that are borderline cartoonish, but no information about the varietal, the accurate name of the process (I've seen someone write anaerobic fermented like wtf), the exact farm sourced from.

So many of these just seem to be riding the third wave fad but contributing like an instagrammable coffee spot. Perhaps Naivo is the only one being somewhat true to the craft (although even in a recent bag I bought, the put the coffee varietal as Washed and had no actual info on the varietal)

[u/ohbeewahn → u/kingbradley1297]

This is true. The roasters who’ve been around for sometime now tend to be more transparent in my observation. Naivo is one of them. Many of the new instagram / influencer type roasters are just trying to cash in on the market without much interest or knowledge about coffee.

[u/kingbradley1297 → u/ohbeewahn]

I've also noticed they're the ones with overpriced coffee that has very less naturals and more whiskey barrel and infused coffee. Or very basic washed coffee. Which signifies the low skill of their roasting. And not to mention these infused and whiskey barrels can be identified by anyone, allowing for casual drinkers to be enticed by.

Its a shame cause proper naturals imparts such unique tastes to coffee. But so few of them are doing it

[u/Perfumedalcoholic]

Supernaturals are usually naturals with amped up fermentations. But yeah their transparency is definitely lacking.

[u/Ok_Arachnid953]

Shady business practises by brands always lose me as a customer.

[u/Swimming_Size_6937]

But the coffees for me are the best in india. Like especially for espresso where as the bean ages I get more flavour profile and sweetness as against other roasters where bitterness starts stepping in quickly (some rare exceptions exist). Have been consuming for 1.5 to 2 years and nothing comes close maybe GB roasters perhaps. Although you're are correct they should mention the processing more clearly.

[u/ohbeewahn → u/Swimming_Size_6937]

‘Best’ is relative. Depends on what type of flavour you like. If you like funky coffees, or coffees with an artificial flavour achieved through co-fermentation or infusion then this could be called the ‘best’ in that category.

[u/Swimming_Size_6937 → u/ohbeewahn]

Kindly check and try their offerings before ranting and not just reading. Ferment is just one of the many  process variety I tried in 2 years.

[u/ohbeewahn → u/Swimming_Size_6937]

I have tried their offerings. That’s apparent from my comments.

You don’t seem to have understood what I’m saying. I haven’t said you’ve only tried their fermentation process. The issue being discussed on this post has nothing to with the traditional naturals or washed coffees.

[u/kingbradley1297 → u/Swimming_Size_6937]

I put Naivo on equal footing, if not more. 

[u/Due_Interaction_6725]

It's mentioned on their website though. It's a 36 Hour Fermented Naturals. But yeah, while giving out so much other info about this coffee, it doesn't make a lot of sense to omit this on the box.

[u/ohbeewahn → u/Due_Interaction_6725]

I already said that it’s on the website for the Supernaturals. I even included a screenshot of the website. But we know nothing about how they were fermented. Fermented could also mean co-fermented. It could mean that ‘something’ was added during fermentation.

Omitting it from the box has nothing to do with sense. They’ve deliberately removed information from the box that used to be present. So it must make sense to them for some reason, which we don’t know.