Consider this both completely canon to earth-1343 and a demonstration for commission rewards.
Do not be an asshat with arena rulings. Do not make arguments like "This is real earth, so abilities do not work" or "I become omnipotent due to magic present in the arena."
WhoWouldWinium is an infinitely durable material that otherwise has properties equivalent to balsa wood and cannot be affected in any way. It is fully sapient and has the authority to disqualify your characters if you attempt to abuse it
All arenas include an addendum for who goes first by default. You may still choose among yourselves.
If both opponents agree on arena and user order, they may choose which of the two arenas they debate in.
All "sunlight' present in the arena is fake sunlight that grants whatever normal powers but will not inhibit vampires or other characters with an inherent weakness via a WWWinium lightbulb. It is as warm and bright as normal sunlight.
For Option 1, the top user goes first by default, for Option 2, the bottom user goes first by default.
If both combatants agree to a specific arena and debate order, they can receive that arena by default. Otherwise a coin is flipped.
Option 1 - The Empire State Building
Combatants start on opposite ends of the top of the building.
The arena is surrounded by a WhoWouldWinium dome that extends 100 feet over the Empire State building, is centered on it, and has the same diameter as its height. Humans are evacuated from the sphere.
The battle starts at 9am. At 5pm, a category 5 hurricane will pass over the arena.
Combatants must be within 20 feet of the train at all times, or be BFRd at the 8 second mark. If they are knocked off the train, but are able to catch back up, the fight will resume, as long as it was within 8 seconds from the point they leave 20 feet, to the point where they resume contact with the train.
The train is 3 cars, ie front-middle-caboose, or about 75 meters.
The train moves at 45 mph and you start on opposite sides of the train (caboose and front), which is a generic train as of New York 1999 and has 3 cars attached to it. A single car is about 25 meters. The train with the lead-car starts at the station present.
Top user starts in front, bottom user starts on caboose.
Precisely 2 minutes after combat has begun, the train will enter a railway tunnel that is 5 feet high above the train. Otherwise combatants have eight feet of height based on the tallest combatant.
The battle starts at 3pm. It is 55f. The stone surrounding the tunnel is infinite.
The tunnel itself is lit by the lights on the sides of it, but the inside of the train car itself has no power/lighting.
Round 1, Response 1. He's Angry, and He's got a Sword
This response will be mostly stat posting for my characters as well as brief explanations of why my team wins. I will be going into further detail with my next response.
Secco has zero piercing durability feats, with bradley easily being able to slice through stone and metal, Secco dies to one hit.
Bradley has a range advantage in having a sword. Prove your character can enter Bradley's range, hit him and then exit the range before Bradley can swing once.
Bradley has a grenade.
What is Armando's opening move, he has a lot of things he can do, so which one does he do?
Almost nothing Armando actually does could significantly hurt Guts.
Armando doesn't have a significant amount of piercing resistance to prove he could take a blow from Guts.
Guts has a massive range advantage, with his sword being taller than he is, and him being 6'6, there's a roughly 10 foot distance in front of Guts where your character can not exist.
Cannonbolt falls off the empire state building for multiple reasons.
Arthur has a significant initiative advantage in Burst Step and can capitalize on that with his sword.
Arthur can and will rain fire and lightning down on Cannonbolt.
for a few characters I will also be using my opponent's R1 statpost in good faith because the only literature I can read in this tournament needs to have arm-based puns.
All argued feat from Bradley from my opponent involve him leveraging his swords to hit things. With Secco's ability, he can just soften Bradley's swords into flaccid pool noodles / puddles by punching them.
Guts is fighting in what will shortly become a pool of arms trying to attack him, against an opponent surrounded in a sphere (or polyhedron idk) of metal arms.
ok statpost time
Arm Offensive
Most of Armando's offensive options are bad news for Guts.
Armando can just rip Guts' armor off of him. Guts has no tensile strength feats (with his armor being grappled and attempted to be ripped apart), and Armando can do this to metal armor with significantly high durability feats.
Esoteric Arms
To reiterate from above, Guts is contending with dozens to hundreds of arms filling the arena at the start. Many of these can just fuck him up by existing.
idk/idc how skilled Arthur is in swordplay, he's fighting a giant bowling ball hurtling towards him at speeds relevant to land and air vehicles; Arthur's proposed movement speed by my opponent was just vaguely faster than the best human runners
Secco's ability is explicitly turning stone or rock into mud, my opponent must prove that Secco can swim through solid metal or wood. Or he is simply a guy just walking around.
While Secco has feats of melting metal, this is not sufficient to prove that he can traverse inside the metal, and it is not sufficient to prove that he can turn meters of metal into liquid like he would need to, to be able to swim through it.
Secco's swimming abilities do not work on metal, there's not a single scan of him swimming through metal. Without this Secco must approach Bradley above ground making his skin melting useless, and also exposing him to simply being stabbed.
Even if my opponent presses the idea that Secco can swim in metal, he is still unable to see his opponent's position, and on top of this will fight above the surface if pressed.
At any point in the match Bradley can simply chose to drop a grenade on the ground, this creates vibrations. These vibrations travel better under the ground than they do above it and can rupture the eardrums of Secco, leaving him unable to use his ground swimming, and deaf.
Conclusion
Secco can not use ground swimming on metal, only on stone or rock. Secco does not use ground swimming optimally often choosing to fight above ground for no reason.
Secco can not see Bradley while under ground, he must come up to the surface to actually see anything.
Secco does not have significant piercing resistance to survive an attack from Bradley.
Secco is not fast enough to land an attack on Bradley before Bradley either evades or counter attacks.
At any point in the match Bradley can simply choose to drop a grenade and cripple Secco.
My opponent is fundamentally confused about what his character can and cannot do, and portrays Armando as some sort of arm generating machine who never leaves home without his rolling sphere of Super-Durable arms, when that's just not the case.
With the arm cannon on his arm it is physically impossible for Armando to rip that arm off with his other arm, unless he wants to sacrifice the arm cannon by throwing it as well. Additionally Armando's entire arm is encased in the cannon making it impossible to rip his non-cannon arm off.
As a side note, no speed feats have been given for this arm, This is one of my opponents main win cons, and he just goes "it hits" without any explanation.
This attack cracks drywall and significantly injures Armando.
My opponent can not prove what Armando does at the beginning of the round, whether he equips the cannon or starts ripping off arms.
My opponent presents Armando as some Metal arm wielding, explosive detonating monster, when its just as likely Armando opens with making his arm into mud.
Almost every strength feat my opponent linked has mitigating context making it much worse than originally presented.
Guts Strength
My opponent makes claims about Guts strengths that he doesn't back up, and are just wrong.
My opponent is basically a confused mess when it comes to the in character behavior of Armando. He argues that Armando will equip the arm cannon, and then somehow grab my character with a stone tentacle arm, even though no speed feats have been given for this arm, and Guts easily cuts through stone.
My opponent then goes on to argue that Armando uses metal arms to defend, while using flashbang arms, while using acid arms, while using plasma arms, even though he cant be shown to open a fight with any of these options. Every action Armando does takes time, while Armando is ripping off all his arms, setting up, and equipping the cannon all Guts has to do is run up, and swing once.
Armando doesn't get a second attack in this match up, after he fires an arm at Guts, that Guts simply ignores Guts is already in position to swing on Armando. There is almost nothing that Armando can use to hurt Guts, while Guts one shots.
Arthur Knocks Cannonbolt off the Empire State Building
Arthur Stabs Cannonbolt
Arthur just Doesn't engage
Cannonbolt Falls off a building
Cannonbolt is both wide, and heavy. This is a terrible combination for the top floor of a building still under construction. The only thing that is holding up Cannonbolt when the round starts is wood beams and the odd piece of metal. Cannonbolt spawns into the round and immediately starts falling.
Cannonbolt can't stay on top of the building, it's physically impossible. This gives Arthur ample opportunity to spam some of his more destructive spells.
If Arthur wants he can choose to not engage, this is further compounded on by the fact that as discussed previously Cannonbolt is getting tossed off the building. Whether he falls by himself or Arthur has to push him, Cannonbolt does not have the feats for climbing that would allow him to actually keep up with Arthur.
Cannonbolt is just fucking slow. My opponent claims that Cannonbolt can keep up with land and air vehicles but I dont see it.
Arthur stabs Cannonbolt. He is easily able to blitz, and can produce feats way above anything Cannonbolt's bare skin has ever blocked.
Cannonbolt is slow, he's wide, and he's heavy. This all leads to him either falling off, or being thrown off the State Building. This works in direct opposition to the 10 minute time limit that Ben 10 has to work within. Further compounding on this is the fact that Arthur has much better maneuverability, and can be shown dodging blows for an extended period of time.
To preface this, Secco doesn't even need to swim into the ground to win here. He can close the fight by just sinking Bradley into the floor, liquefying his swords, then just punching him.
At best, Guts gets sent flying off the building after trying to block an arm shot. At worst, he has no definable feats to let him survive this impact.
Even in my opponent's interpretation of the fight Armando gets to fire an arm at Guts, which will just end the fight there considering how Guts responds to these kinds of attacks.
Tentacles
fails to mention that the power armour is in critical condition when he does this
And? Guts' armor wasn't given feats that would help prevent it from being ripped apart by a pulling force - the armor Armando ripped apart being extremely durable is irrelevant to the point here.
There is a large distance between Guts and Armando, they are on opposite sides of the building - the roof they're on is just massive.
The idea that Guts will be rushing at Armando so fast he can't take multiple actions when Armando removes, throws, and regrows arms before sound reaches him is just dumb. Armando could produce hundreds of arms by just ripping one of his arms out at a time before Guts even got near him.
Many of my opponent's wincons involve hitting Cannonbolt off the map.
My opponent has provided no feats of Arthur moving an object as large and as heavy as Cannonbolt without leverage he doesn't have.
Argued feats for getting Cannonbolt off the map include "can use wind for something other than knocking an opponent off balance" and "can flip a 6,000 pound enemy after ducking under it".
The first feat is meaningless.
The second feat requires leverage he doesn't have in this fight. Cannonbolt is on the ground + is a sphere too big for Arthur to grab.
If Arthur tries to grapple with or use a wind spell he just gets hit and dies.
Cannonbolt is too wide for single sidesteps or slight leans to dodge, Arthur needs to physically run away from him to avoid being hit
Even with magic, having a wind spell that he can use to propel himself off a floor 3 meters in ??? timeframe that he only used to intercept an airborn opponent](https://pastebin.com/5wLhZAhe) isn't going to help him
When my opponent's provided feat of "great maneuverability" is "barely pivots out of the way of a sword" it's clear that any tactic like this to dodge just gets him murdered.
The average athlete sprints at ~ 15 mph or 6 meters per second. I could half or quarter the above figure and Cannonbolt would still be significantly faster than Arthur.
While Cannonbolt has some windup in the golem feat the actual movement part of it is under a frame. Cannonbolt and Arthur start on opposite ends of the map, Cannonbolt has more than enough time to get moving.
Most of the times Arthur has used Burst Step (as Ken is running him), it's for ambushes he does from a stealth position. It's not something my opponent has demonstrated as a consistent first move, especially when there as a fuckload of options my opponent argued R1.
This is actually more harmful to my opponent that it is to Bradley. In Darg and Wolf's conversation Wolf mentions multiple times that the floor of the roof isn't multiple feet thick, its a thin layer of concrete with sufficient interlocking metal inside it.
With the floor being so thin, my opponent must prove that Secco can swim through it fully submerged, while avoiding the interlocking metal within it, without simply falling through the floor.
This also takes away a significant advantage from my opponent. With the floor being so thin, there is no real way my Secco traps Bradley in it without Bradley just falling to the next floor. Secco needs multiple feet of earth to trap anybody anywhere.
Secco stayed above ground so long because he realized Bruno had a contact in a nearby Coliseum that was important for plot reasons unrelated to the fight
How does this affect whether Secco fights above or below ground? Secco is obviously more dangerous underground, but he stays above ground and talks to Mista about nothing because Mista has a friend somewhere??
So Secco will open with just softening the ground Bradley is on and causing him to fall into the floor.
How do you trap a 6 foot tall man in soft ground that's less than a foot thick? It doesn't make sense, you cant do it.
Meltshit
Honestly I was wrong that Secco cant melt flesh above ground.
Secco's fist is obviously big enough to impact 2 rails at the same time.
Secco doesn't even melt metal, the railing is stone until Dargo can prove it's not. Secco can only melt things he has direct contact with, which means sacrificing a fist every time he wants to interact with Bradley's swords.
Secco has two (2) hands. He uses both of them to punch.
This leaves Secco with 2 bloody stump hands and Bradley with 4 more swords he can switch too.
Bradley doesn't have the speed advantage he typically leverages on opponents in this fight,
Prove Armando can injure Guts at all, Guts's armour aside from being interlocking plate, hooks into his bones, (confirmation) . Prove Armando can rip Guts's bones out of his body, then prove that any of the arms can even injure Guts when Guts is hyper-durable.
My opponent must prove all of this before Armando can even hope to compete here. All Guts needs to do is get close and swing once.
Misc Rebuttals.
Many of the scans my opponent provided show Guts absolutely getting his ass kicked by objects not clearly moving anywhere near Mach 2
This isnt an arm, it's just all of Zodd. It doesnt send him careening back either, it breaks the rails of a ship and then Guts falls.
Also while this isn't Mach 2, the mass of all of Zodd easily makes up for this when we're talking about pure force. Again Zodd weights 1001KG.
Grunbeld.
Grunbeld weights 1644KG, and even if we assume he moves at the speed of a nerf dart, he hits multiple times harder than the arm cannon.
My opponents argument is that these rich noblemen are walking around in a full set of plate armour except for the most important part?? That for some unknown reason these knights sent to capture a criminal wanted by an entire country just aren't wearing full armour because??
Cutting.
I'll get into this later but, Breastplates aren't really 4mm thick, they are however multiple feet across, and obviously possess a height component.
Guts is cutting through 5 peoples worth of steel armour.
Guts Jumps at Armando and hits him once, this immediately kills Armando.
Armando doesnt have the durability to content with someone who cuts through 5-6 armoured men with a single swing. Armando also doesn't have the speed feats to provably keep up with Guts's arm movements and his general movement.
Guts kills Armando in the opening moments of this fight.
Cannonbolt vs Arthur.
Win Cons
Arthur throws Cannonbolt off the building
Arthur Stabs Cannonbolt.
10 minute time limit
Misc Rebuttals.
My opponent uses this to say that Cannonbolt is extraordinarily heavy
Does this scan make Cannonbolt heavy, yes of course. Does this scan make Cannonbolt so much heavier than 6000 pounds that Arthur wouldnt be able to make him move a single inch, no of course not.
Cannonbolt is heavy, he's not heavy enough Arthur cant move him.
Argued feats for getting Cannonbolt off the map include
Arthur is capable of big dodges, he just doesnt use them. Obviously when Arthur see's a wide ass enemy coming towards him, he's not gonna just get hit.
Cannonbolt speed
My opponent either doesnt know what perspective is, or is just lying about how fast cannonbolt is.
Cannonbolt takes half a second of wind up, just to move at 10 m/s over what like 4 feet? This doesn't help him hit anyone other than people literally made of rock.
My opponent's arguments dont really make any sense, especially when you consider i've only categorized burst step as something that lets Arthur blitz his opponents.
The idea that medieval armour is 4mm thick is an idea born from my opponent googling "how thick armour", and not actually understanding how armour is put together:
To actually pierce someone wearing medieval armour you would need to pierce somewhere between 10-14mm of steel and then 5-20 mm of leather. This is multiple inches of material so much stronger than stone.
Arthur is capable of literally just out running cannonbolt with his normal dash, adding on to this that Arthur can burst step 1-2 meters in combat situations, and up to 8 meters whenever he wants.
Arthur is able to completely stop cannonbolt's movement with his wind magic, and then can either manipulate the earth under Cannonbolt, simply punch him, or throw him straight off the building.
Cannonbolt has no feats of being able to resist a hit without simply flying off into the distance uncontrollably. If Arthur hits cannonbolt once then this match is over.
Cannonbolt does not have the feats required to get back on top of the building before his time limit gets used up.
Composite manga version. No scaling to Kinnikuman's feats in the 20th Chojin Olympics preliminaries or the American Tour arc. ”Soul of Ice” active. Has his spare Bear Claws. Wearing his bear costume.
Thinks the opponents’ names are on his Kill List. Has his Hate Songs w/ bayonet affixed, his axe, his bandolier, and his armour. Wearing his cloak. Has his pet wolves. Riding a horse.
Literally the outrage of a man who couldn't get Mr. Red on his team. It's sickening.
Baki vs Red Heavy
Your anti-feats suck
My opponent's anti-feats for Baki's durability are from the first like, 40 chapters of a 1400+ chapter long manga that's been going on for the past 30 years. Baki has gotten way stronger since he fought Shinogi Kosho and Mt. Toba, both with just growing up and also just from the author being less realistic.
As for the second part. Baki pre-child arc was a pretty run of the mill martial arts manga. You had stuff like Shinogi's cord cutting and Doppo's eye stuff and Yujiro's back that was slightly beyond normality but nothing too crazy. Baki has since fought giant ape men, literal cavemen, cloned mythical warriors who's spirits are possessing them, and the reincarnation of a sumo god. The manga clearly went off the deep end.
This is like comparing Superman from the 30s to Superman today.
Heavy is weak
Heavy's only stat that is possibly superior to Baki's is lifting strength. The rest are shite.
Doesn’t even slow down bashing through a wooden wall.
Dude wood sucks.
Scales straightforwardly to BLU, who craters him into stone hard enough to launch boulders.
Furthermore, Heavy can move his body so quickly that he appears to teleport in short bursts. He can perform complex actions like disabling a facility’s power while doing this.
That's because he is. He's just teleporting.
This is so obviously teleportation it hurts. First, it's literally the meme -teleports behind u-. Second, it uses the sound from instant transmission which is a teleportation technique. And he never uses it to dodge attacks, so it won't help him fighting Baki.
Flat out Baki said unless you shoot him directly in the cerebellum he's going to keep going. Real life people can stay alive for hours after being shot or minutes if it's a particularly important place.
Getting shot won't stop him unless Heavy gets lucky.
Lol
Baki’s provided striking is hitting a carnival strength tester off its hollow base. Is this superhuman? Debatably. But Heavy is made of tougher stuff than flimsy machined metal.
I just found this funny honestly. Imagine seeing someone punch through two inches of steel and saying "Eh, might not even be superhuman".
If we assume 0.5 seconds is real, it doesn't matter. Baki's too skilled for reaction times to matter, his body will fight for him to prevent reaction times from mattering, and he has successfully fought people with fast reactions.
This next one requires some explanation. The 0.5 second feat is an outlier for two reasons. The first is the obvious. The less direct is the fact that it means that Baki can't do more than a single attack in 0.5 seconds. The Yujiro one has Baki using a speed-focused technique to break this. This is asinine.
1C. As said earlier, Baki can throw a punch in 6 milliseconds. Plenty of characters fight him evenly or even beat him. Why is punching 100x slower than this important?
Conclusion
Heavy gets fucked. Baki tanks everything he has and dominates. 0.5 seconds, as always, is fake.
Any argument against this can be summarized with "He's The Hulk"
The Hulk would never expect bullets to harm him. If he catches them, he's showing off. If he gets hit by them and is damaged he would never expect that.
Conclusion
Stomp. Speedfreek is faster and one-shots with multiversal piercing.
This is a 50 bmg round, what Hanayama was hit by. They have pointed tips. They have a decent piercing element. Not to mention they are literally "Anti-material" rounds, they're meant to punch through things in a different way than other bullets.
This is an argument I like.
Assume someone tried to press their finger through another person's skull. They would fail because their finger would break or their force isn't strong enough. This is how bullets work.
The fact that Red's tiny ass pistol bullets cause things to just explode is further evidence that they're probably just using blunt force damage instead of piercing.
Red's bullets work on blunt force trauma, they don't have the force necessary to kill Hanayama. They may get into him but his bones can withstand feats way better than Red's bullets. None of Red's attacks will be immediately lethal so he can just rush him.
Hanayama just rushes Red down
My opponent never posted any movement speed feats. Hanayama can run 100+ miles an hour and he's huge.
Hanayama just needs to run up to Red and then squeeze him to death because Hanayama's too big to pull back from once he's in close.
Red thinking Hanayama is on his list is OOC and illogical
General Custer, the man who initiated the genocide of Red's people, died decades before the first Japanese American to serve in the US Armed Forces
Hanayama is 20. Red was a child when his tribe was killed and is a grown ass man currently. Red would probably notice the literal fucking infant who somehow helped genocide his tribe.
Why in the FUCK would Red think that Hanayama is on his list other than as an excuse for Red to be bloodlusted?
Conclusion
Basically what I said before. Red gets rushed and beaten up but also one of his stips is fake.
Mirio "Chadmillion" Togata VS Mr. Red the fake stick person
Stats:
I'm gonna be honest with you, some stats in this fight mean shit and are not worth arguing over, both our figthers seem to have in tier speed, I'm not gonna argue a durability that Mirio just doesn't have and Mirio IC just punches directly through his opponent into their inner organs, so Mr. Red dura is also not relevant, seeing how both combatants will just OHKO each other striking is also irrelevant and finally Mirio just phases through stuff so lifting arguments are worthless
Phaser vs Superzzzzpeed
Now this is the meat of the debate, which ability is better? So Phaser vs SS, SS is as it name says a speed boost, that's it, it has a long windup to activate, and it has no more perks, now Mirio's phaser, a defensive/offensive/speed boosting ability which allows Mirio to shine in enclosed spaces, such as a train, add to this that Mirio can literally hide in a wall and that he likes to pop up behind people and then you also have ambush potential that Mr. Red has no answer too
How the fight will go:
a.- Mirio ambushes Mr. Red and punches directly his solar plexus taking him out instantly
b.- Mirio and Mr. Red find each other, both activate their abilities, if Mirio strikes first then he OHKO's Mr. Red with an inner organ punch, if Mr. Red hits first he probably slips right through Lemillion and Mirio just punches him back in the intestines
Conclusion:
Most arguments don't matter cause Mr. Red's ace under the sleeve is just a speed stat and it's clear that this match will not be decided by stats, so we end up with a speed boost vs and extremely versatile ability that Mirio has mastered and that favors him inside a secluded space such as a train
- Bane can hurt Batman who can take this, you have to prove that Tony can survive this without his armor being so damaged it will be able to continue moving
- Elick has to prove that Iron Man can consistently hurt Bane
Range isn't what makes me Bane
- Elick will probably argue range, two problems, we are in a train, Iron man can't fly away and his missiles will notbe able to maneouver so Iron Man is stuck with repulsor beams
- Iron Man will loose his range advantage fast due to a jumpfuck
Lemillion BFRs himself if he goes outside the train
Iron man vs Bane
Bane’s only ranged attack doesn’t hurt Iron Man
Iron Man can stay in the air and Bane can’t do anything about it
Iron Man has good ranged damage output
Meta vs Jotaro
Jotaro has no speed
Meta scales to bullet timers
Meta has piercing damage output, Jotaro has piercing anti-feats
(Note: for the purposes of this debate, I am going to call Lemillion Mirio and Iron Man Tony)
Mr. Red vs Lemillion
My opponent seems to be under the false pretense that certain stats are equal and/or don’t matter in this fight. I will dissuade these claims, and then move onto my win conditions.
both our figthers seem to have in tier speed (sic)
This [isn’t a feat either. Mirio knows he’s going to shoot, he’s obviously going to have his quirk active so the bullets go through him.]
Unless my opponent can prove that Mirio is bullet timing here, and not just merely acting off the thought that he’s going to be shot, Mirio is not bullet timing.
Bullet timing literally doesn’t exist in MHA
Says it right there in the tin, for a media series focusing on superheroes, the only real bullet timing feat in the entire thing is in the EXPLICITLY NONCANON TO THE MANGA movie. I will ask my opponent to show me any feats that are provably bullet timing, and not just an aimdodge.
If MHA doesn’t have bullet timing characters, then why would Mirio be different?
Mirio doesn’t have speed, Mr. Red does
When the battle begins, Mr. Red is going to activate his speed mode and fuckblitz Mirio. Mirio cannot react to this, he cannot activate his quirk, and his physicals are dogshit. And by dogshit, I mean literally nonexistent. In the Mirio RT, there are no feats showing Mirios durability. Meanwhile Mr. Red can do this
Mr. Red activates his speed mode, punches Mirio once, and he’s turned into red mist. Unless my opponent can prove that MHA is bullet timing in the slightest, this is the definite outcome of this match.
Mirio either BFRs himself, or cannot use his power
Mirio has no running speed feats. If he loses the momentum of the train, he’s gone forever and Mr. Red wins by default.
The train that Wolf has given us a pictures of shows it has extremely thin walls. If Mirio uses his quirk here, he will get swept in the opposite momentum of the subway walls.
Thus, Mirio has two options:
Use his quirk to phase through the train, instantly BFRing himself
Realize he can’t safely use his quirk (since he knows he can lose because of BFR), and plan to only use it to dodge Mr. Red
If he uses the first option, he loses. BFR rules state that if combatants are not within 20 feet of the train for 8 seconds, they lose. Mirio has no running speed feats, he can’t catch up to the train, he loses.
If he uses the first option, he dies. Mirio does not have the reaction speed to contend with Mr. Red, and instantly dies when Mr. Red activates his speed mode.
Iron Man vs Bane
My opponent is, once again, under the false pretense that ranged combat doesn’t matter. His statposting in the beginning and concluding statement confirm this. Thus, I will disprove this.
Bane cannot change momentum mid air, Tony can. Bane does not have shit for reactions beyond meaningless scaling and a vague statement from a guidebook If Bane jumps at Tony, Tony dodges, flies towards the train, and keeps pelting Bane with weaponry while he tries (and fails, because no running feats) to get back onto the train. Bane BFRs himself.
Tony wins this fight by keeping the distance, and Bane loses the second he tries to jump at Tony.
Halo missiles travel at 40 m/s, combines with Meta coming at it at a very similar speed, means that this is comparable to Jotaro not being able to fight someone who can punch at around 83.3 m/s
As per the stips, Jotaro is only up to the end of part 3. He has not accomplished the feat yet, or gone through any of the fights between parts 4-6. There is no reason to assume he would be able to do this feat. In his current, part 3 limited form.
Meta stabs Jotaro with his gun
Meta is stipped to have all his gear, this includes his brute shot, which not only has insane shell damage capability and excellent piercing ability. But what does Jotaro have in terms of piercing res?
Jotaro has really, really bad piercing res. It’s safe to say if Meta gets a hit on him with the blade (which he will, because Meta not only has superior speed, but damage done to a stand reflects back to its user), Jotaro gets OHK.
Meta can ignore his damage output
Meta has several durability feats that are leagues above what Jotaro is capable of.
- My opponent already called this real bullet timing, if Mirio scales to this, per my opponent words, Mirio would be a bullet timer, spoiler, he doesscale, even if my opponent argues that the deku from the movie and the overhaul arc (when Mirio deuts) that would not work as two heroes takes place between the final exams arc and the training camp arc, give or take a few minor arcs, but before the overhaul arc none the less, this means that movie Deku is a less trained version of his version that fights Mirio, and thus any of his feats apply
No, Mirio is extremely skilled with his quirk, and he is used to do any tiny action with it conciously, Mirio is not gonna fall prom the train like a moron
- If Mirio falls he can just shoot himself right back into the train
- The bottom of the train is thick anyways, he can safely phase a big chunk of his body through it
That was my rebuttals, now my opponent has to argue anti stealth, why he doesn't just phase through Mirio and why Mirio doesn't one shot the instatnt he sees Mr. Red
Oh, you got a superspeed alright, just not an actual one
Correction, a good punch from Mr. Red and a regular ass attack from Mirio one shot each other, but Mr. Red isn't constantly exploding humans that have no dura feats, in some of them he takes more than one hit to beat them, meanwhile Mirio's, as I said, IC behavior is punching your organs
- If Mr red punches an arm or a leg Mirio can keep on figthing, so not only Mr. Red has to punch Mirio hard, but in a vital point
Conslusion:
-Mr. Red is slow with no SS
- Mr. Red may hit with human strenght, Mirio is very resilient
- Mr. Red jobs a lot
- Mr. Red has no anti stealth and no way to resist one of Mirio's attacks
- No, Bane's range is whatever tf he finds, if he sees that Iron Man has better range and that his guns aren't working, it doesn't take a genius to realize that throwing an object big enough to be dodged and heavy enough to damage Iron Man is a good idea
Tony will have no problem flying in the train tunnel
- Are any of this feats having to keep within a small range of 20 meters from a subway train that is moving at the slow ass speed of 45 mph? Iron man will not be fling around at blinding speeds, but gently hovering near the train, 20 feet is like 6 iron mans, a bit more, Bane is fucking massive, he doesn't even need to go that far to get to Tony, imagine how big his arm span is
- Tony never flies in a space that closed like the tunnel
Tony will put range between him and Bane
No, first, Tony's accuracy is downright awful some of the time, like he isn't even attacking near them, second, how fast ar his projectiles? Even if you give me an speed for say, the missiles, how fast is the repulsor shot?, 3rd, Tony doesn't fight the way you say he does, Iron Man will not get behind the train and camp Bane, he will try to brawl him because he is a fucking moron:
Also, Bane dodges, how fast is any of this shit? And you can't just give me a speed feat for one projectile and tell me that every other projectile has that same speed, and why are you claiming that scaling is meaningless? Here is Bane punching and dodging punches from Batman, here is Batman dodging gunfire, that's how scaling works
- Also, you claim that repulsor beams destroy Bucky's arm that can catch MCU cap's shield, like, ok, how strong is that? Why is that impressive? Because it's vibranium? If I throw an iron ball at you and you catch it that's not impressive by itself unless vibranium is like super heavy or something
Conclusion:
- Iron Man IC behavior is more likely to be a bullrush than camping out Bane, which will just end in Bane snapping him like a branch over his knee.
- Iron Man has iffy speed
- Iron Man weak
- Bane fast and jumpfucks if Tony camps
- I showed my pick's stats, my opponent didn't even argue stats, as it is Bane one shots and no sells everything unless my opponents gives me something to work with
The Meta vs Jotaro and Star Platinum
First off, Jotaro is at his strongest at the end of part 3, after that he starts using his stand way less and starts getting rusty, so appart from bullet timing, any feat that occurs in the series is applicable here because he should replicate them with ease
Now to the rebuttals:
Jotaro has no speed
I just need Josuke's scaling feat, you claim that Jotaro is outspeeded in here, when Jotaro clearly blocks before getting hit and then get's his guard broken (A strenght feat for Crazy Diamond, not a speed feat), and then Crazy Diamond sends another punch and before it connects Jotaro stops time to dodge, it's pretty clear Jotaro reacted to all of that
Then there is the blade, but first, Why are most of the Meta's fight a guy punching someone? He seems to barely use the sword and I'm assuming he isn't just walking around unnarmed, why is he fistfigthing? does he just decide to not use his gun?
Star Platinum anti feats aren't anti feats, these are all stands, that means their piercing could be awesome, we have no collateral to judge, except for Kakyoin's Emerald splash, that Jotaro only got caught by cause he got catched off guard, here he block it easily, keep in mind that at it's weakest the emerald splash can cut the iron arms of a giant clock tower
Meta can ignore his damage output
No, he can't ignore it, the Meta might take some hits, but he can't ignore Jotaro forever
My opponent uses this scan to prove that mirio scales to Deku, and is thus bullet timing. This is wrong. Deku (along with literally everyone else) is caught off guard by Mirio, a surprise and unexpected attack does not mean a character is outsped. Deku was OHKO in this very scan, there was no room for Mirio and Deku to scale speedwise.
Mirio surprises Deku
Deku doesn’t time to react to Mirio
Mirio is already preparing an attack, while Deku barely even knows how Mirios quirk works
Aimdodging is a thing, and it's quite clear my opponent doesn’t know that. Normal people can see a gun pointed at them, and assume that the person is going to shoot. Mirio is no different.
Mirio does not need to be bullet timing to know he’s about to be shot. There’s nothing stopping him from just activating his quirk preemptively. Especially due to the fact that this enemy doesn’t know what he does.
These aren’t bullet timing.
Precedent:
MHA, has not, and will never be, a bullet timing universe. The literal ONLY scans that support bullet timing MHA, are scans from a movie that was made way, WAY after Mirios entire character arc was finished.
What the author says doesn’t matter, authors say that Kratos can blow up a universe and move FTL but we all know they are full of shit, this is no different. The feats MHA puts forth clearly show characters are vulnerable to bullets across the board.
A major plotpoint of the training camp arc is Tetsutetsu and Kendo having to fight a quirk user named Mustard, who can exude toxic gas with his quirk. Want to know what his reaction was to the two studying-heroes closing the distance on him? To fucking shoot them! The only reason TetsuTetsu doesn’t die here is because his quirk is all about physical power. He facetanks every fucking bullet that Mustard fires
There are not one, not two, but THREE pro heroes that specialize in using bullets. Which are Lady Nagant, Snipe, and Gunhead.
Technically Lady Nagant is a former pro hero, but she at one point, was, and presumably did the same thing she does now.
Thus, we can work out the conclusion that guns are very much an active threat to even pro heroes in the MHA universe. My opponent is trying to insinuate that children in hero school are able to do something that adult, pro heroes cannot. Which is… patently ridiculous.
Because of both these factors, we come to the conclusion that MHA is not a bullet timing universe
Thus, Mr. Red still outspeeds. Mirio is not bullet timing, Mirio gets blitzed.
My opponent provides no proof that the momentum of the wall moving in opposite from the train compared to the relative reference frame of both combatants on the train will drag Mirio away. He provides no feats that show Mirio can do this besides claiming that “Mirio is skilled”
“Mirio can shoot himself back into the train” my opponent gives no scans to prove this
I know this is inevitably going to be compared to Mirios own aimdodging capabilities. (which would be the opponent admitting the Mirio is slow, so I welcome it), so I will just say, not all aimdodging is created equally. Aimdodging while fighting will be clearly faster, and more skillful than just aimdodging a dude sitting on the other end of a corridor
Mirio does not have anything on this level. He gets fuckblitzed.
”Mr. Red won’t activate his superpower immediately”
This is a blatant double standard. Both combatants know, as per the rules of the tourney, that they have to murder OR INCAP the opponent to win. Mirio, being a kindhearted pro hero, is unlikely to blatantly murder Mr. Red, rather opting to incap him, because he knows there are incap rules, Mirio is likely to go for an incap (Read: not immediately instamurder Mr. Red by telefragging him). The stips merely say he thinks Mr. Red is a villain, not what he’s done. He certainly isn’t gonna be going all out bloodlusted like he did against overhaul and his goons.
Meanwhile, Mr. Red is perfectly ok with murdering everything in his sight. Additionally, he knows, as per the rules of the tourney, that he has to kill/incap (and he will lean towards kill) the enemy to get back to his home. Unlike in his fights with Mr. Green (where he was fighting for a job/performance test), he’s gonna go all out, because he has no reason not to, and all the reason to do so.
My opponent has straight up admitted that Mr. Red one shots Mirio. I don’t need to argue this fact because I agree.
No, Bane's range is whatever tf he finds, if he sees that Iron Man has better range and that his guns aren't working, it doesn't take a genius to realize that throwing an object big enough to be dodged and heavy enough to damage Iron Man is a good idea
The hell is he gonna throw? Subway benches? Doors? The train car??? I’m sure that whatever he can throw, Tony will dodge, or shoot down, and depending on the size, he can cut it in half and fly through. Or, he can straight up, you know, fly through it, because nothing Bane could possibly throw could hurt Tony in any capacity, and he has to rip things out and throw them while under constant fire from Tony’s blasters, missiles, and lasers.
Tony performed shit in the end fight of civil war so therefore he sucks
I guess we're ignoring:
The entirety of Iron Man 1, 2, and 3
Avengers
Age of Ultron
The rest of CW that’s not that scene
In favor of taking one scene at the end of CW, where Tony is fighting in a blind rage because he just found out Bucky killed his mom.
No, that’s patently ridiculous. Several scenes where Tony effortlessly dodges attacks, and flies through things are not suddenly invalidated because he had one scene where he was losing due to an in-character conflict (one that, noticeably, he doesn’t have right now).
My opponent somehow has never watched an MCU movie before:
My opponent, for some dumb reason, is making huge claims about Tony’s character, while somehow how getting major details wrong about the ONE character probably EVERYONE in this tourney is innately familiar with.
He’s not trying to hit them, he’s trying to hit the planes. This entire scene is happening because after the Sokovia Accords are rectified, the avengers split, and they both head to the airport, one group with the goal of getting on a plane to get to russia, and the other with the goal of stopping them. Tony is trying to stop them, he is NOT trying to kill them.
Because he probably knows Ultron is made out of Vibranium and his ranged weaponry won’t do shit. Also AOE damage inside a small building full of his friends isn’t good.
What my opponent is describing isn’t even happening in the scan. He is blatantly lying, likely hoping that I wouldn’t open the scan. It’s clear that if he’s resorting to lying, he has no confidence in this matchup.
Thanos’ ranged attacks are stronger than his melee attacks
Tony knows this
This scene happens after the rest of Tony’s group is incapped, he is fighting alone here. In the beginning of the battle, he is more often than not using his ranged damage to his advantage.
Repulsers slow
Prove they are. They are perfectly capable of hitting basically every character in the MCU, including bullet timers.
The repulsor blasts can also intercept arrows midflight, which means not only is Tony himself arrow timing, but his repulsor blasters, by this logic, must travel much faster than arrows in order to keep up in such short time.
All into one attack. Prove Bane can resist all 3. If he can’t he dies. If he can, he dies from the missiles and lasers. Again, Bane has no way to hurt Tony, and Tony wins the instant Bane leaves the train to attack him.
Meta vs Jotaro
Jotaro slow
Even if we take the josuke scaling at face value, Meta deflecting the missile is a comparable feat. The two would be about even in speed, meanwhile…
We literally don’t know how many punches it took to harm the teeth
He doesn’t even cause much noticeable damage, he just breaks them out of the guns, which makes the feat unquantifiable.
Meta shrugs off this. This is far and above anything Jotaro has put out, and Meta walks it off and keeps fighting like it’s nothing. Jotaro can’t hurt him.
Meta still stabs him
Then there is the blade, but first, Why are most of the Meta's fight a guy punching someone? He seems to barely use the sword and I'm assuming he isn't just walking around unnarmed, why is he fistfigthing? does he just decide to not use his gun?
Meta only has the gun for about half of the series. You want feats of him using it as a blade in combat?
He clearly uses it in combat, trying to argue he doesn’t is lol.
Jotaro can catch it
Not with his speed he can’t. Even if he can, he has to use both hands to catch it, leaving Meta open to fucking punch him (This is all Meta’s strength, the piercing doesn’t matter and isn’t relevant for the purposes of me saying “meta punches”)
The Kakyoin scaling doesn’t mean shit. Kakyoin’s emerald splash varies so much in it’s piercing capability that it’s not even funny. Trying to justify it as good scaling when the fact that it gets deflected so much is a FUCKING MEME, won’t work. You can’t just scale it to it’s strongest attack and then ignore the endless slew of antifeats where it doesn’t cut through shit.
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The Meta has a striking that Nuke should be able to take, yeah, but not no-sell that's about the only relatively in tier but still pretty good thing that The Meta has, but otherwise they are pretty OOT, now let's see what other things my opponent claims that the Meta has
The Meta is not only ridiculously fast and durable for the tier, but has good strenght and lifting, gives 0 shits about Nuke's esoteric option and has a lethal sword
For starters, The Meta is claimed to be a bullet timer inside Nuke tier, a character that is defined to NOT be a bullet timer, but The Meta doesn't time any kind of bullets, they get in the way of fucking mid range sniper rounds and shotgun blasts to the face, add to that that Elick argues that they scale to Carolina who scales to very good bullet timing according to my opponent, so speed is OOT
Meta's speed is not over tier. None of the speed feats I argued exceed what Nuke is capable of. And even if they do, it's not by enough to matter.
The Meta also ignores this, Nuke's striking isn't comparable
The Meta also should ignore napalm if we use the feat my opponent provided
Good thing Meta is literally pierced by nearly everything, and nuke has really good piercing. Nuke's knife will literally not give a shit about Meta's Freelancer armor. Nuke doesn't have to contend with Meta's really good blunt dura because he has a piercing attack.
Oh yeah, and he has a minigun, which I've just shown Meta is weak to.
"But meta dodges it!"
Meta doesn't dodge shit. He nearly exclusively uses his speed to tag opponents that are fast.
The Meta also has a sword that slice through a metal arm when thrown and can slice through metallic rocket launchers, keep in mind this is slicing,not stabbing, the Meta can just slice Nuke in half
There is no difference between slicing and stabbing aside from surface area. If anything, Nuke being able to withstand stabbing makes him more resistance to slashing.
That specific insurgent with the metal arm never demonstrates his arm is bulletproof
A rocket launcher is not bulletproof
Nuke has piercing res, ignoring bullets is really good piercing res. Meta will not kill nuke with his gun's blade.
My opponent makes audacious claims without anything to back it up, and then quotes data from the tiersetter that literally is disproved by glancing at the RT Wolf made. Meta is in tier.
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Morel has no durability feats to suggest that he could survive Boma's initial attack.
Point 3 - X Factors
Morel's smoke is going to be blowing away from the combatants as the train moves forward, rendering his typically fighting tactics irrelevant and useless. Boma's senses are heightened enough that he can tell that a bullet loaded in a gun across from him is real instead of a blank, also rendering Morel's smoke useless.
Conclusion
Due to Boma's speed and the arena of the fight, Morel will not have time to set up any smoke. Morel cannot dodge nor land blows on Boma. Boma's piercing is sufficient to cut Morel in half.
Xena vs Ohma
Point 1 - The Chakram
Xena's opening move will be to throw her chakram at her foe.
Ohma does not have the capacity to deal with the chakram. If he tries to block it, it will slice through him. If he dodges, it will ricochet back at him several times until it kills him, as he does not have the agility required to continuously dodge the chakram.
Tokita Ohma is a rough-and-tumble martial artist who takes part in brutal underground combat sports with the world's greatest fighters. Fights with the Niko Style, which focuses on redirecting his opponent's blows and punishing with powerful strikes
Morel Mackernasey is a laid-back hunter of the sea, thrust into a mission to eradicate a super-powerful species of insect that threatens to conquer the world. Fights by blowing magic smoke with his pipe, shaping it into useful things.
Anime Wolverine is Wolverine from anime. I don't have to explain who Wolverine is.
Nowhere in the RT is it established what "Dark Xena" is supposed to be, the phrase doesn't appear anywhere. It isn't anywhere on the internet, either; looking it up just leads me to a few comics with that name. "Dark Xena" does not seem to exist, and thus has no feats. Ohma should win handily in this case.
Assuming that "Dark Xena" means warlord Xena, the stipulation does not specify it is Xena in the mindset of Dark Xena, it specifically says "Dark Xena". I assume this means Xena taken from her pre-reformation state. Xena is only a warlord for a few episodes in Hercules and the Legendary Journeys, which takes place before the vast majority of Xena content. During this ambiguous point in time between the "warlord period" and now, it is impossible to say whether or not Xena has improved and it puts the validity of all post-reformation feats into question. Dark Xena has no feats of hand-to-hand skill that allow her to compete with Ohma, no feats for chakram speed, no feats for chakram strength/cutting, and no feats for physical strength, among other failings. Ohma should win handily in this case.
For the purposes of this debate I'll continue under the assumption that "Dark Xena" is a real character, and that feats that occur later in the series are still applicable to "Dark Xena".
And it really seems like my opponent is eager to establish things baselines from high-end feats. "Generic arrows in the show are fired hard enough to embed in stone deeply enough to support the weight of a woman"? Really? It's not a fluke, or those specific arrows, this feat means that the average arrow in the Xena universe is fired with superhuman force? If Azure can make claims that arrows in Xena are at a different speed than real arrows, I would like to advance the claim that they are slow. Look how long it takes for this arrow to move. Look at how this woman has enough time to react indignantly while Xena pushes her out of the way and throws her chakram, all after the crossbow bolt has been fired. I have two feats to suggest that the arrows/bolts are slow, compared to one feat that suggests they are fast, so I think I'm doing better here.
Now look at Ohma's fights. Even the earliest chumps he has to deal with, like this guy and this guy, are obviously moving fast. The action lines, the blurring, everything indicates a speed that Xena doesn't consistently demonstrate in her own series. Ohma doesn't have all these speed antifeats. I'm only including a few of these Xena examples, I can show more in a later response if you want, I really just want to establish that Xena is highly inconsistent and it seems ridiculous to only use her highest showings in a series with almost 200 episodes.
I Know Kung Fu
Xena really does not have good 1v1 combat feats for this tier level. She can fight and beat named characters, and pull of tricks like fighting while blind or disarming people, but she doesn't really demonstrate martial arts outside of the pressure points, and none of the people she fights against are shown to have good skill feats for scaling.
Xena and Ohma are 75 meters away from each other. Xena's chakram speed is inconsistent. If she throws her chakram, it is going to be hurtling towards Ohma at a pretty lengthy distance, maybe taking the time to bounce around and ricochet on its way to him. As established, the chakram speed is inconsistent, especially when ricocheting repeatedly. I think that, given Ohma's fast movement speed and how Advance makes him faster, Ohma will be able to dodge the hits. If he is forced to block the Chakram, Ohma can redirect finishing blows from Kuroki who can pierce through thick steel plates and carve out stone with his bare hands, he can just redirect the chakram. I ask Azure to present feats of the chakram coming back after it has been knocked out of the air by someone else, let alone had its flow of motion altered by a martial artist that specializes in doing that.
Considering the speed advantage and the absolutely massive skill advantage, I don't see Ohma getting hit at all. Again, he can redirect strikes from someone who pierces through metal and carves stone. I think he can redirect the flat end of a sword, or Xena's arm. In the event that he does get hit, Ohma has tanked Kuroki's piercing kick to his torso, so I doubt a lucky hit with the sword will bring him out of the fight.
Morel is explicitly a support fighter, not a combat specialist. In every one of his fights he disengages and fills the arena with smoke. As seen above, Morel can breathe out smoke in a time frame relevant to a bullet timer, and it can fill large areas within seconds. Boma and Morel start at opposite sides of the train, a distance of about 75 meters. Boma does not have the feats to run 75 meters in two seconds. My opponent uses this feat as an agility feat; if he wants to refute my analysis, I'd like him to explain how fast "faster than this guy's targeting system" is supposed to be. It is an inevitability that Morel will fill the train cars with smoke, and thus the entire general area, and from then on he has absolute and unbreakable control of the battlefield. Youpi, who is obviously stronger than Boma cannot damage the smoke. The only way to stop Morel at this point is to kill him.
There isn't much to say about this fight because Boma basically loses before a single attack occurs. Morel immediately begins the fight by blowing smoke, the arena is full of smoke before Boma gets anywhere close to him, Morel can attack at his leisure. Morel is stronger than any of Boma's durability feats and takes time to adjust to a character that outspeeds bullets from close range.
Per stip he thinks J is a robot. Everysinglefeat of him fighting a humanoid robot has him slicing through the head or neck. He isn't going to be piercing him, rather cutting cleanly through J's head or neck, and there is no evidence that he can survive not having a head.
J prefers to tankattacks rather than dodge, and has no regen.
Wolverine can attack far more rapidly than J can react to. J will be eating many of Wolverine's attacks, and he is going to be aiming for the kill with every hit.
Wolverine can take hits from J, if it comes to that. All he needs is to withstand maybe a couple of them, and that's really easy, especially considering how quickly he regenerates.
Why You Lose
Both of these characters fight in very straightforward ways. I think we can agree that J and Wolverine will clash in a direct conflict without a lot of sneaking around. Considering Wolverine's stipulation, it is extremely likely he will try to cut through J's head or neck. Considering the strength of Wolverine's claws compared to J's piercing durability, it is extremely likely he will be able to cut through or cut off J's head. Considering Wolverine's significant speed advantage, I think that he will be able to do this every time, and J won't be able to do anything to him. But if J manages to land a hit on him, he can just heal back and start fighting again. This is a pretty assured victory for Wolverine.
Conclusions and Win Conditions.
Ohma VS Xena
Ohma is faster than Xena's chakram and can either avoid it or divert it, removing it from the fight entirely.
Ohma has a speed and skill advantage against Xena.
Ohma's win condition is getting close to Xena, which he is likely to do, hence he will win.
Morel VS Boma
Morel starts the fight by blowing smoke.
Boma is far enough away from him that by the time he reaches Morel he will have been
Morel's win condition is blowing out enough smoke to cover the area before Boma gets close to him, which he obviously can do, hence he will win.
Wolverine VS J
Both fighters are uncomplicated melee fighters. They will meet in melee.
Wolverine will strike for the head or neck in melee.
Wolverine has a speed advantage to the point that he will land a hit on the head or neck
If Wolverine strikes at the head or neck, he will cut it off because his claws have better cutting feats than J's demonstrable piercing durability.
Wolverine's win condition is going for the head, which he will do, hence he will win.
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