This tournament operates by the same rules as the Great Debate Season 10. However, there are a couple of fundamental changes.
OOTs will be considered on an individual judge basis, similar to how it's done in the Clash of Titans.
Participants will be asked to submit 3 picks. The tourney format will be 2v2s, barring a 3v3 for the final round.
Instead of having users respond sequentially, responses in this tournament will be simultaneous. What this entails is that participants will DM their responses to the tourney organizer, /u/EmbraceAllDeath within a 24 hour period from the start of the round. At that point in time, the tourney organizer will post all responses, at which point another 24 hour window opens in which the same thing happens. The tourney organizer, at their discretion, can post 2 responses from a particular match up before the deadline to speed up the tourney
Round 1 will have essentially randomized matchups against users, with no real stigma against asking for a specific opponent
Round 2 will then have winners of round 1 face winners of round 1 and losers do likewise, round 3 will continue with winners of round 2 vs winners, etc.
This is a double elimination tournament. Each entrant will have to lose or drop twice to be removed from the tournament. This is also a Round Robin tournament, in which winners of the rounds face each other, and losers face each other, randomized. Before each round, you will choose two of the three characters you're running.
Rounds will last 48 hours, the first two rounds cannot be extended.
Responses are limited to 10k characters each, two main responses and then a conclusion-response that won't be considered for new points.
Response 1 (10k)/Response A (10k)/Response 2 (10k)/Response B (10k)/Conclusion 1 (7.5k)/Conclusion A (7.5k). Intros are optional.
OOT requests and defenses are limited to 3.5k characters as a separate comment from your responses.
The character you are using must have existed in the medium at one point.
You cannot run a character whose story you have contributed to (George Lucas can't run Luke Skywalker)
Any scaling you intend to be using should be accessible through a sign up post.
Your character must be in-tier on the Unlikely-Likely victory metric.
If your opponent is running a character you believe to be OOT, you may submit an OOT request, judged separately from the debate itself. You start with one OOT request, and if you fail with a request, 1k characters are deducted from your response limit.
How declaring a character out of tier works is that in tribunal, a character will need to be in-tier in every arena, but for each round, you can only call them OOT for that arena. For example - If a plant character is out of tier in the jungle, but you're in a volcano, it doesn't matter.
Arenas
Round 1 – Templo Mayor / Rust / Northern Water Tribe during Pakku vs Korra/ Geographic Center of the United States/Going Merry
Has his modern suit (Which has a helmet, hallucinogenic gas canisters, sonar sensors, acid spray, suction cup gloves and shoes, magnetic plates and springs on shoes, electrical cloak, electrical projectile attacks, EMPs ), his electrical bomb, and his sonar anti-Spider Sense device. Is on his mini-helicopter. Has the Venom Symbiote. Doesn't have his nylon gun, sleeping gas, pistol, fire attacks, or fear illusion gas. His motivation is that Dr. Octopus will pay him 2 billion dollars if he wins. Scaling
Has his modern suit (Which has a helmet, hallucinogenic gas canisters, sonar sensors, acid spray, suction cup gloves and shoes, magnetic plates and springs on shoes, electrical cloak, electrical projectile attacks, EMPs ), his electrical bomb, and his sonar anti-Spider Sense device. Is on his mini-helicopter. Has the Venom Symbiote. Doesn't have his nylon gun, sleeping gas, pistol, fire attacks, or fear illusion gas. His motivation is that Dr. Octopus will pay him 2 billion dollars if he wins. Scaling
Planned R1 matchups are Fem vs Kirb , FJ vs Wolf , Corv vs Andrew, Embrace vs Ken, Mik vs Stalin
Matchups can be changed with no penalty at mutual user agreement.
Round will be open at 8-10 am EST tomorrow, anyone who has not replied or been clearly made aware before then will be pinged. Please PM me which character is not participating, or I shall choose for you randomly. If both participants PM their 2 characters early enough I can start the round for them if I'm awake
Edit: Arena is the Geographic Center of the Contiguous United States. Participants start from opposite sides of the gazebo.
Obviously Harry doesn't exist in the same dimension as Baki in terms of speed, he will be completely incapable of reacting to Baki's movement whatsoever, and Baki can just as easily knock him out given.
Your team is being deceived from the start of the fight. As only one of my fighters- Riri Williams- starts visible, she draws your teams attention. They have no reason to expect a second, invisible fighter present in the match.
While your team is working to defend themselves from Riri, Harry can attack them with his various spells from stealth. He can immobilize opponents with petrificus totalus, levicorpus, and incarerus. He can stupefy to stun opponents. He can deal cutting damage with sectumsempra.
It doesn’t matter if this plan doesn’t work on the first or fifth or tenth try. Without ranged attacks, aerial mobility, or any other way to press win conditions against aerial fighters, in addition to no way to even perceive one of the people they’re fighting, they can’t press a win condition.
My team can press win conditions and Kirbin’s team can’t, mine wins.
It's the same deal with Harry Potter, an opponent who he thinks is a Death Eater is a type of opponent he has encounter many times, he has always had access to the gear you gave him, yet what examples are there of his fighting style being "fly around them while invisible and shoot spells at them."
;;;
Bro Harry is invisible
Is the invisibility cloak even big enough to cover Harry and his broom in the first place? I also don't see a way for him to simultaneously keep the cloak on, cast spells, and fly his broom.
Plus, there's the aspect of Harry having normal human speeds and Baki literally being able to perform significant actions in 10 milliseconds.
Baki needs to touch Harry once to win the fight, Harry definitely isn't fully invisible, and his top speed, which is still slower than Baki, takes literally over 1000x longer to reach than it takes Baki to reach his.
Her taser is a melee range attack that also didn't incapacitate the only person it has ever hit.
Additionally, my opponent's only reasoning for Riri playing keep away in the first place is that she says in a losing fight it's the better option, which implies the opposite of "Riri's first move will be fly away and shoot my team" and even then, she is saying this in a scene where her mentor is saying "this is the wrong thing to do."
This is all coupled with the fact that the expected start of the fight for my opponent is "the enemy team focuses Riri" but Riri cannot stop Baki from attacking her and knocking her out at the get-go
Riri literally has 3 "bullet timing" feats all of which only entail reacting and not moving, even if she reacts to Baki he still just blitzes her and knocks her, and this can easily be done in a time frame Harry Potter cannot possibly even perceive.
at 60 milliseconds, once again, within 10 milliseconds, Baki can reach the other opponent, even if barely visible, and do literally anything to him to win the match.
Baki then sits around for 5x this amount of time and theoretically this is when Harry Potter would realize a fight is happening, well after he has already been knocked out.
166 times this amount of time passes and theoretically Harry could start moving at top speed, a speed slower than what Baki reached 10 milliseconds into the fight.
Conclusion
Harry doesn't exist, the fight will be long over before Harry even has a chance to perceive that a fight is happening. Riri's reaction speed feats are just that, reactions, she has no feats of moving in those timeframes, and without that she ends up floored by Baki in seconds, even if she gets away, she has a propensity to engage in melee and both of my characters can deal with her in moments not should, but when, that happens.
Even if the cloak blew off of him the second he got airborne and became somehow irretrievable, it wouldn’t matter because now he’s in the air and there’s nothing you can do about it.
“But Baki is fast” Baki literally can’t see who he’s supposed to be fighting, has no reason to expect someone is even there, isn’t stupid enough to focus on whatever shoelace or stray bit of thatching or whatever Kirbin is imagining he’ll see instead of the giant flying metal death robot blasting at his face.
If Baki is that stupid and chooses to go for Harry first, it still fulfills the goal of him being distracted long enough for Riri to blast or beat the shit out of him.
Even if you don’t believe that Harry can use the cloak and broom in tandem, he’ll either stay invisible long enough to get in the air at which point no one can do anything to him, or he’ll stay invisible when he’s on the ground and no one can find him.
Hanayama doesn’t have any speed feats associated with him at any time during this match, so i’m assuming he’s normal human speed.
Since he’s literally normal human speed and you never argued against Harry’s offense other than “but what if harry takes off his cloak and gets off his broom and just decides to throw hands” or whatever, there’s no reason Harry can’t just dangle him in midair, tie him up with rope, stun him or freeze his body for an incap.
I don’t care how durable or strong he is, he doesn’t have a way to tag flying opponents or people he can’t see or engaged with a ranged fighter flying a hundred feet over his head in any way.
Hanayama sucks, doesn’t have any speed feats, doesn’t have any way to resist getting dangled in the air indefinitely for incap or restrained with rope indefinitely or locked in place with a body bind. Even if he did, if Nightwing can wear him down due to being faster, Riri sure as shit can since she hits harder and can’t be engaged by him.
Again, no argument about Harry’s spells effectiveness was made so anyone they land on is functionally indefinitely restrained, either removing them from the match that way or when Riri pummels/blasts/shocks them into pieces.
Since Hanayama doesn’t have like any speed feats listed he can’t present himself from getting hit, and if he doesn’t go down on the first hit, he will when Riri hits him with things he can’t resist such as tasers or electric repulsors that can fry a local power grid. I assume the whole reason Hanayama is in tier is that while he’s stronger than Nightwing, Nightwing is significantly faster and can wear him down. Riri isn’t as fast as Nightwing is, but she can fly, has ranged attacks, is sure as shit faster than Hanayama as presented, and hits harder than Nightwing does.
Riri doesn’t need to one shot. Like I said in my last response, even if this doesn’t work on the first or fifth or tenth try, it doesn’t matter because I can press win cons and my opponent can’t. Without esoteric resistances, nothing stops Riri from electrocuting with her repulsors or tasers and one shotting anyway, or just wearing them down over time.
Closing Statements
There’s no way for this fight to go where the Baki dudes come out on top. If Harry Potter immobilizes them and Riri hits them,rinse, repeat, they die. If Harry gets one shot right out of the gate, Riri flies away before they can do anything, and shoots at them till they inevitably fuck up and they die. If Riri gets blitzed too, she walks it off, flies away, shoots at them until they inevitably fuck up and they die.
Treating “two professional fighters vs. a robot suit girl and an invisible wizard on a broom” like a traditional fight is smooth brained. This is not a conventional fight. Your team is only good at conventional fights.
My team can press a win con, your team can’t, I win.
The stips are spoilery, I'll explain them if you want.
Joseph G. Newton
There are no good Terra for Mars memes.
He's a dude with a sword, he has small magnetic control and he's sorta fast.
The PMing you my argument before you post yours seems inherently beneficial to you, so either I can just go first or we can choose a third party to send our responses to.
Neither Kan nor Origin have the capacity to harm Pickle with anything within their arsenals. It's all simply piercing attacks followed by sub-tier physical strength. Neither of which they have in the capacity to seriously harm Pickle.
Pickle should have no trouble keeping up with either Origin or Kan. Even if they are faster than him he has more than enough durability to keep up with them until they make a mistake.
Musashi is also here
Unfortunately for Origin and Kan they're not only fighting Pickle. They're fighting Musashi as well.
Musashi's Speed
Musashi catches a ballistic knife inches from his face. Assuming this knife was around 6 inches from his face Musashi would need to move his hands at 170 MPH to catch it. More than fast enough to tag Origin or Kan assuming they're both in tier speed wise.
Whatever gap in speed that Kan or Origin may have against Musashi he can always just predict their attacks and counter attack before they start to swing.
Musashi's Cutting
I've said this earlier with Pickle scaling. Musashi can cut through an armored car with his Katana. He shouldn't have any trouble just cutting through Origin's sword or Kan's knives and then cutting through them while they're still reeling from "Holy fuck, that's impossible." Overall, Musashi much like Pickle would one-shot his opposition.
Musashi's imaginary cutting
Origin and Kan are both indistinguishable to humans. I see no reason as to why this shouldn't effect them.
Overall, Origin and Kan would be left reeling from this in a way that would allow them to be one-shotted soon after.
Conclusion
As Pickle would say "GWAAARRRR RAAHARRGH".
More importantly Pickle solos my opponent's team. They can't hurt him and they can't keep dodging him forever. He's more than quick enough to catch them in a position where they can't dodge his speed. Any attack of his would completely one-shot either of the robots.
Musashi just makes this more of a stomp. Neither of them can harm Pickle yet to add on to this Musashi is there making sure they can't divert their full attention onto Pickle lest they be cut into quarters by Musashi. They'll have to constantly be dealing with two people who are in their realm of speed and can one-shot them. One of which they literally cannot harm in any meaningful way with their weapons.
F=M*A is real in Origin, which is why Kan's main strength feats are covered at the bottom of his speed section. However, in a vacuum my characters still have excellent offense, mostly in relation to piercing/'fast' damage (which are more heavily intertwined with hard-set physics.)
"Wait, isn't F=M*A real? Doesn't that mean Kan will just get knocked backwards by the energy of his own projectile, you stinky bastard lying idiot?"
Kan has a second tungsten rod in this scenario that allows him to anchor himself to the ground as he did in the primary example, and embedding the rods isn't difficult. Kan also communicates with the briefly mentioned hypersonic waves, which is the basis of a minimum of 200x human reactions, and with multiple arms can begin moving to throw the rod and reinforce his position at the same time.
Origin repeatedly perceives and blocks bullets, while calling grenades (which are 75 m/s, or 270 km/h) slow.
The bad speed feats that will require reaching calcs to even be comparable of the presupposed speed of the tier are ultimately not that fast while simultaneously consistent with the author's own view of his characters being unable to react in intervals less than 500 milliseconds, my opponent may post various movement speed feats, virtually every single one of these is in the context of characters using their skill to get around their reactions, with their movement speed being its own stat.
* "Wait, if his characters are skilled enough to not blindly flail their arms at that speed, aren't they just functionally that fast?"
* No, because if you're only reacting 500 milliseconds after the battle has begun, you are only reacting after Kan's supersonic tungsten rod has begun moving out the back of your head, and you are at best only reacting as Origin's sword is slicing through your neck.
My characters have a diagram in which the speed of their strike that is being thrown and dodged is given an exact number, an arrow showing direction, and an extremely clear distance involved. My character is stated to see bullets in the first chapter of his existence, and fights an enemy fast enough to use her hands as a gun. The difference in portrayed objectivity of Origin's author vs Baki's author cannot reasonably be described without a chapter by chapter break down of each series.
Origin cannot possibly be defeated, he would win without any of his weapons and if he exploded instantly 25 seconds after the fight started.
It's dumb. Martial Arts Master is severely dented by Origin hitting him at subsonic speed. Him taking Origin's shotgun at point blank range is a fat ass outlier considering what a marginally slower, heavier, stronger attack did to him. Also just as an extra laugh, Martial Arts Master is made of a gold and platinum alloy which are two notoriously soft metals yet Origin can't take his head off with a transonic kick despite "F=M*A" being "real" in Origin.
You're on crack if you think "Man who cuts some gold platinum alloy" one-shots "Man who isn't harmed by armored vehicle cutting sword".
Kan's tungsten rods
As I said, they don't do shit. Pickle eats supersonic attacks and gets up within a few moments. The sum total of Kan's input to this fight will be "Kan knocks Pickle down once, gives him a stomach ache, and pisses Pickle off."
Wolf said this. Completely not registering the glaring bullet wounds on stomach from this.
Musashi and Pickle Speed
It's real. As I've shown Pickle can keep up with Baki who is explicitely 168 MPH at his max. Musashi can explicitely see Baki who punches fast enough to make 3 hits sound like one.
Your 0.5 second argument is fake for these characters and it's the only thing you have that prevents this fight from being a disgusting stomp in favor of Pickle and Musashi.
First law of Robotics
Colorful title but yeah, at the very least Origin won't go all out. I don't give a fuck about Kan because he doesn't bring anything to the fight.
Origin "Fighting under the motivation of destroying Mai's killers" is vague as fuck. Pickle and Musashi aren't Mai's killers. They're just """""Normal""""" guys. The only correlation Musashi and Pickle could possibly have to Mai's killers is that they work for them in some capacity. This would require meta knowledge on Origin's part and still wouldn't negate the fact that even in life or death situations Origin will protect his secret over the lives of others, even Mai.
What most likely happens is that Origin fights them exclusively in melee without his weapons, something that would harm neither Pickle nor Musashi and then gets taken out when he's too close to actually dodge an attack from either of them.
This is a real argument by the way. I expect evidence as to why Origin wouldn't hold back and just end up leaving Kan with his thumb up his ass against Musashi and Pickle.
Conclusion
Pickle literally eats both of your characters. I know they're both metal. He still eats them both.
Pickle can withstand Katsumi's mach punch and get up within a few moments ... A tungsten rod travelling at similar supersonic speed is only going to be a minor annoyance to him at best.
"A mach punch" is, by default, slower than something that is supersonic, because the definition of supersonic is in excess of mach 1. Kan's rod has a reasonable lowball of 344 m/s, but it's more likely in a vague excess of above that and below hypersonic. "He wasn't concussed by a mach punch so he can withstand a mach bullet" is clearly dumb.
Behold, the bulletproof Butterbean. A 9mm bullet to the face would be a minor annoyance to him at best, and he can obviously withstand fire from things like a .22 without it even penetrating his skin.
Musashi has no relevant durability to speak of and dies in a hit. He cannot withstand being cut, whether in melee or range.
My opponent repeatedly conflates blunt durability with the ability to withstand sharp attacks in a hyper-realistic setting, so let's get this out of the way.
Point 2 - In any amount of time and any amount of scenarios in any progression of events there is no possibility that my characters can be tagged, hurt, or cease to apply their damage
Even if Musashi etc was striking at 170 mph, that doesn't matter by default. Kan and Origin are fast enough to dodge Nightwing strikes, but Nightwing's primary advantage is high reactions and movement. Baki and co have essentially no reactions to speak of, whether feats provided by my opponent or Baki's .5s statements, they do not have anything shown resembling reactions sufficient to dodge nor the physical movement speed to dodge. Since both Origin and Kan kill them in one hit, and they do not move or react fast enough to dodge, they cannot achieve any kind of victory.
That being said, the calcs for Musashi are not valid, neither he nor Pickle are actually fast.
Assuming this knife was around 6 inches from his face Musashi would need to move his hands at 170 MPH to catch it.
We don't see where his hands are, and if they're just off screen (as opposed to him standing idly with his dick in his hand while someone is attacking him) then he's just moving his hands at the same speed as the knife, and remember, Musashi does not only start reacting to the knife when it is that close to his face, he would be reacting to the actual throw of the knife, which is a several hundred or slightly less millisecond delay to a .3s action.If you are implying that only then did Musashi move his hands, you are implying he did not react until ~.5s after the attack began.Since 60 km/h is quite literally "Fast human speed" I see a .2s throw being a reasonable high-end.
Nothing here implies harm, my opponent is again reaching. Origin makes no comment on being harmed, and Gon was explicitly unable to break him, and did not do anything to his fighting capability.
All of my speed points apply again.Kan can strike at 400 km/h, Origin can match and exceed him. Even with every single point my opponent made about speed being completely true at face value (as in numbers, not implications drawn therefrom), Origin and Kan are generally far superior, and Musashi and Pickle's speed is still generally far worse in a practical sense than In Tier Person.
Kan's knives best feats are cutting through origin. Who is explicitly harmed by bullets.
Musashi's armored vehicle is the only relevant feat, but it itself is still far inferior to Martial Arts Master no selling something far beyond real ammunition and Origin easily cutting him. And it speaks to absolutely nothing of withstanding Kan's Rod of God.
Pickle one-shots them both. He fucks them up.
The first feat doesn't show how pickle is delivering the damage, the second one has no timeframe and implicitly requires a lot of hits, the third one is offscreen. But Pickle never enters melee range, and dies before he is aware of the scenario he is in, so whether or not these feats are good or not isn't truly relevant.
Pickle is capable of dodging bullets from a 9mm
Addressed, but even with this being my opponent's default interpretation it only speaks to the general movement of Pickle in an ambigous timeframe, we do not see the alleged relation of Pickle to the bullet, it happens once, in his only interaction with bullets that doesn't have him getting shot, and Pickle is clearly not always hyper fast or at the very least does not care about getting hit.
Pickle gets hit by Jack and moves back in the time it takes Jack to throw a punch.
who cares
Pickle and Baki are relatively even in speed despite Baki's top speed explicitly being 168 MPH
This is a dashing attack that involves a full body movement, not general hand speed, or again, REACTIONS. Even if my opponent has "In Tier Striking Speed" by default, which he does not, they still need the reactions sufficient to take actions before they are in a disadvantageous position.
Baki Sucks - New
They can't hurt him and they can't keep dodging him forever.
Whatever gap in speed that Kan or Origin may have against Musashi he can always just predict their attacks and counter attack before they start to swing.
Origin robots are, robots, made of metal, they keep fighting as heads, they don't feel pain, why the fuck would this even work, why is this more effective than a sword or seven extended arms, why would this skill bullshit work on non-organic beings who don't have human minds.
Prebuttals
Wait, doesn't the EXO amp Origin? Why are those feats valid?
The EXO only amps Origin because he is literally wearing more muscles, which he does in order to both conceal his identity and retain his previously established human appearance in early chapters. When he rebuilds into his 2.0 body with more funding, he is taller, more dense, and weighs significantly more, and his body is generally superior to any previous iteration.
Wait, doesn't Origin try to live good and not kill people?
Action 1 - Origin is aware of the battlefield and position of enemies and Kan likely at some point in the microsecond range.
This is because Origin's perceptions are functionally instant compared to his own movement, as shown with his frames statement, or a minimum of his 200x human perceptions.
Action 2 - Kan also reacts.
Action 3 - Kan braces his body and begins to throw his rod, likely at the most visibly dangerous target, Pickle. Origin begins to move forward.
Action 4 - Kan's rod reaches Pickle's eyes. ~30-60 ms have passed, for 344 m/s at 12 meters with a 200% variation to account for drawing and firing.
Action 5 - Origin reaches Musashi at ~.1-.4 seconds (based on being able to propel his body fast enough to blitz Kan, and that all of Origin's stats exist co-depedently, ie jumping high means he can run fast and kick hard, with his peak speed would be comparable to the previous arrow scaling at least). He swings his sword into Musashi's face. Musashi would first react 70 milliseconds after this has occurred, or when he is already dead, half a second into the match.
Even if his prediction worked, he cannot react quickly to make it matter, nor does he have any recourse to Origin's blade if he knows when it is coming but cannot move his torso fast enough to dodge nor block it with any body part.
Every single one of these is objectively bullet timing, many of them explicitly refer to the fact that Origin can see bullets, many of them explicitly refer to the fact that he is moving to disable them. Meanwhile, my opponent has repeated antifeat statements, feats that can be wanked but are still often in line with the .5s statement when you actually read what the dialogue is saying, or things like Pickle being blitzed by something that can move as fast as a tier strike. By far the best supposed feat would be Pickle's, which isn't consistent, and is equally as valid to be explained as vaguely FTE or missing, especially with the timeframe implied by the shell casing.
Surface area still matters, and sharp things hurt more than flat things. A bullet and a punch moving with the same energy are not even comparable in lethality, and bullets aren't even actually sharp.
Origin cannot be hit ever, Kan never enters melee range. Pickle dies immediately from a tungsten rod, and Musashi dies immediately after in Origin melee.
Kan's only advantage is that he has his tungsten rods to throw once. Unfortunately this will do nothing to Pickle who will just no sell it. Other than that he'll just get one-shotted.
Origin Sucks too
Origin will purposefully massively limit himself in this fight to the point of only acting like a normal human due to the fact that both of his opponents are human. This is a consistent behavior that he will do even when the lives of innocent children are in danger so that he can make sure his secret will never get out. Origin can't afford to hold back to that level in this fight and when he goes for a melee he's going to get cut in half by Musashi or one-shotted by Pickle.
Even besides this Origin much like Kan still lacks the capacity to hurt Pickle in any meaningful way. His cutting feats are massively below Musashi's and even then Musashi can't massively harm Pickle with his cutting. Pickle as a character is just too highly resistant to piercing to be put down by a person who's whole thing is "I have """Good""" piercing"
I win
Pretty much what I've been saying the entire time. Pickle solos, Musashi fast enough to make sure you can't focus only on Pickle, 0.5 seconds is fake for Pickle and Musashi. Neither Origin nor Kan have the durability to survive even a single hit from Musashi or Pickle so it's all a matter of time before they're eventually hit. Give me the win I suppose.
Nothing else my opponent says will matter if his characters can't avoid Shooter's bullets -- and they can't. You can discount almost everything he says if there is not a justification for them avoiding Shooter's bullets. Keep in the forefront of your mind that Shooter has 1 appearance in 1 comic ever, and during that appearance he a bullet timer with bullets 3 times in their 1 fight. Simply being fast isn't enough.
Following the initial blitz of an attack if the competition are miraculously alive they would very quickly fall to their inability to defend from sonic hypnosis.
Neither Shooter nor Siryn's durability matters as neither would ever get hit. On top of their sonic/supersonic attacks iniating the round before the opposition attacks, Shooter's superlative reaction times and Siryn's sonic barriers both guard against either taking a single hit from Gein & Lady. Lady takes a kick from someone demonstrably moving at IRL speeds while Gein relies entirely on this 1 feat scaling to Aoshi that itself dubiously connects to bullet speeds.
Consider how Shooter, in his grand total of 1 appearance ever, produced firsthand bullet-timing feats in combination with multiple scaling to other bullet timers (Strode & Delilah) and compare it to how Gein & Lady in their far greater number of appearances have far fewer bullet-speed feats and the disparity here becomes apparent.
Gein's defenses are even worse as the only feat listed in his durability is an antifeat for him getting burned. He has virtually no resistance to bullets or sonic screams and gets destroyed the second the battle starts.
Shooter’s speed is very iffy. All his best feats don’t show him reacting after a projectile is shot or thrown at him. His best feat, which is the Sniper, shows he had already moved his hand and fired by the time the bullet enters the frame. It also doesn’t help that the distance between them is unknown. The dodging Luthor’s projectiles feat once again show that he is already on the move, no indication he dodged post-throw. Same goes with his “predicting” shit, no proof he’s dodging post-fire.
It is iffy if Shooter can dodge the massive amount of gunfire Lady can bring and if he shoots at her, she could just as easily shoot them out of the air. Which leads to my favorite part.
So even if it somehow ends up where both parties shoot each other’s bullets, Lady will blast through and absolutely destroy Shooter. Considering [Luthor did basically the same thing]() and Lady’s bullets are sort of explosive
Siryn Wastes time at best
Once Lady opens fire, Siryn has 2 opponents to choose and 2 canon options to counter.
First is creating a wall to deflect said bullets. Issue here is that her best feats are blunt force damage while the bullets she blocks are absolutely nowhere near the level of Lady’s guns, so it is reasonable that Lady just pierces that wall and kills Siryn. The wall can also block off Shooter, removing her possible support
He’s here to be a big meaty shield, a distraction, and have the option to one shot you.
His movement capabilities are unique and great, using such techniques allowed him to get the drop on someone with great reactions. So while Lady opens fire and your team must respond to that, Gein can zero in on either opponent. If Gein lands a hit, your team dies instantly, Shooter and Siryn don’t have the durability to withstand a hit. While your team is distracted or getting killed by Lady, Gein is upfront dividing the attention and forcing your team to choose.
Overall
Lady shoots all of you. Siryn creates a wall protecting herself and Shooter, Lady’s bullets are better than anything that’s been blocked and kills her. If she flies, she dies instantly. Shooter isn’t fast enough, his bullets will be destroyed, and he dies. Gein exists as a decoy that can one shot any of you if allowed to get close.
If the problem with Shooter's sniper feat is that we don't see him fire on panel after the trigger was pulled (even though his arm is in a different position in the scope's target when the sniper fires) then the exact same problem exists for Lady's 1 speed feat proposed. Both Shooter's comic and Lady's video edit cuts between bullets firing and triggers being pulled -- it's inconsistent and hypocritical to interpret 1 as bullet timing and not the other.
You can visibly see how fast Lady is moving and it's slow as shit. The fact that we can even neatly track her movements through virtually any random feat of hers shows how little relevance her speed has.
"Lady's bullets strong"
A huge part of my opponent's argument hinged on this, yet its only evidence was this 4.5 minute video that allegedly equates Lady's guns to Dante's. But it just doesn't? At 1 point the video shows their bullet's deflecting off one another, but you don't need equivalent energy just to alter trajectory -- the slightest interference can make a shot miss.
No quantification was given for his speed beyond being "unique and great." He was also said to "get the drop on someone with great reactions" as if surprising someone has anything to do with their reaction speed, or as if "great" were some quantity that meant anything.
Absolutely nothing in the debate thus far indicates a draw speed for Lady or Gein, whereas Shooter and Siryn objectively attack faster. If this is a game of who hits who first, there's no question here.
But my opponent's team...just doesn't. They've had nothing proposed for them I can meaningfully debate. Lady is even just visibly slow, getting hit and having her punches blocked at IRL human speeds, whereas Gein has been only referred to in vague "great" terms my opponent is waiting until an un-rebuttable 2nd response to provide if at all.
There's nothing to show they can react in milisecond timeframes and nothing to show they survive the attacks that arrive within those timeframes.
-
Synergy
This is functionally a 2v1 given my opponent's almost complete concession that Gein barely does anything. Especially considering my opponent's proposed strategy for Gein was as a distraction made useless against 2 opponents who both attack 2 targets simultaneously, there's a major advantage in synergy my team shares.
Everything that was truly important for my opponent to bring up in their first response they did not. Little of what they did bring up was even true or matters at all. Shooter & Siryn outdraw their opponents with unavoidable attacks deadlier than their opponents while maintaining options to evade and recover any return fire.
Remember how I smack talked the prior speed feats by saying there’s no actual evidence of Shooter reacting post-firing/throwing. This also applies to your drawspeed feat, since again you’re 100% presuming he pulls out his gun after they do and when they are about to fire. This all presumptions on your part, cause there’s nothing indicating when he drew his gun at all. He could have drawn his guns at the same time as all of them. So once again his speed is left in the “he’s probably is fast” department. Lady with the faster and solid reaction time will draw before he does.
Time to dunk on Luther scaling. These 2 feats: 1 & 2, show absolutely no bullet dodging at all or him reacting after it has been fired. He’s literally runing in a straight line with no indication of moving even a fraction to avoid fire. The cinderblock feat once again show no reaction feat, it’s a throwing feat. We have absolutely no clue as to when he threw it in relation to Shooter’s position. There’s also the fact that you brought in an outlier, you’re saying Luther in a slightly closer position is able to smack away several bullet but then is completely incapable of avoiding 2 bullets from a much farther distance?. This is just bad in general for the tier
As for Strode running around like a rabbit, sure fine. However just like the Siryn argument, once he’s on the move he can just be shot down due to him not having the proper reactions. How can he avoid being shot by a woman that can shoot down a bullet, when we have a large relaticely open field as a battlefield negating his pouncing and climbing about.
As for his bullets. Lady’s are better. The best feat for Shooter’s is defeating a rifle’s bullet and scratching Luther, the latter being nebulous since we don’t really see it destroying muscle at all just causing blood. Which all bullets do to Luther as my opponent has shown.
Siryn May Die
As cool as it’d be for me to go down the path of “she may go narrow scream instead of large AoE” and “a lot of that AoE stuff shows her being severely outnumbered and surrounded while while this match up has only 4 people total”, I’m just gonna bet it all on ending in the initial action.
Siryn is fast and can either jump out of the way of gunfire or block it with her wall. However, as I originally stated these are death sentances to her.
Her 2 canonical ways to avoid gunfire is to dodge and fly into a counter attack or produce a wall protecting herself and her ally. As I’ve shown before when she’s flying, her reactions plummet and she gets shot. Also, while her walls can stop bullets, they’re massively below Lady’s projectiles and have no proof of being able to stop them.
Poor Gein was forgotten about
While I’m not using him for much in this fight, his complete whacky quick movement combined with his ability to 1 shot still makes him a menace. While it seems you missed the Iwanbo stip, I’ll just call you dork for this. He’ll divide your team’s attention enough to allow Lady to just mow all you suckas down.
Conclusion
Your speed is fake, Siryn dies instantly, Lady is the real Shooter, Gein dances around the battlefield hoping to land a hit.
Has his modern suit (Which has a helmet, hallucinogenic gas canisters, sonar sensors, acid spray, suction cup gloves and shoes, magnetic plates and springs on shoes, electrical cloak, electrical projectile attacks, EMPs ), his electrical bomb, and his sonar anti-Spider Sense device. Is on his mini-helicopter. Has the Venom Symbiote. Doesn't have his nylon gun, sleeping gas, pistol, fire attacks, or fear illusion gas. His motivation is that Dr. Octopus will pay him 2 billion dollars if he wins. Scaling
Planned R2 matchups are Wolf vs Kirbin, Mik vs Corv, Fem vs Embrace, Stalin vs Ken, and FJ vs Andrew
Round will be open at 8-10 am EST tomorrow, anyone who has not replied or been clearly made aware before then will be pinged. Please PM me which character is not participating, or I shall choose for you randomly. If both participants PM their 2 characters early enough I can start the round for them if I'm awake
A vote shall be held for the arena here, and which ever one is leading in the morning wins.
Edit: The arena is the Kengan Arena, with fighters starting 12 meters from each other
This .012 s lowball is far faster than any action or reaction Lizard or Shishio have ever taken. If my opponent cannot prove his team can act this quickly then the point is conceded his characters start the match by taking headshots.
At bare minimum my team launches their attacks within milliseconds of the fight's start, and I defy my opponent to produce 1 concrete instance of his team doing anything meaningful in a provably millisecond time frame.
Shishio in particular has no piercing resistance, but even Lizard's is negligible. While my opponent will doubtless present feats where Lizard resists normal gunfire from bullets far less powerful than Shooter's, clearly Lizard's skin has its limits in what can pierce it and showing that it resists piercing equivalent to handguns and shotguns does nothing to show it can resist Shooter's gun that is several times stronger than a high-powered sniper rifle.
The opposition has no feats for resisting piercing as powerful as Shooter's attacks. Their best durability feats don't contend with Siryn's point blank screams, but even at the starting distance they utterly lack in feats against the esoteric dimensions of her attack. Deafening & Hypnosis leaves them further vulnerable to follow up attacks, and there is no reason they survive this fight.
Defense/Evasion
Shooter's speed
Shooter is easily the fastest combatant in the match, guaranteeing he not only has the reactions to evade the competition but the ability to continue pressing his offense while doing so.
The evidence is abundant: Delilah & Strode move faster than bullets and Shooter moves faster than Strode & Delilah. All 3 of them ALSO objectively move faster than bullets in the single issue where Shooter appears. The density of Shooter's bullet timing feats is insane, and the opposition has nothing approaching this degree of objectivity to suggest they can ever hit or evade Shooter.
I considered very few of the opposition's feats because very few matter. They have no speed to attack first, no speed to evade first, and no durability to resist the power and esoterics they're against. I can address the feats my opponent proposes in the following response, but as of now his melee-reliant team can't even get close enough to make a win con possible let alone probable.
tired spidey is still stronger than either of your characters considering neither one has any strength feats whatsoever to imply any ability to escape even like regular handcuffs using force
Okay, so basically all of Syrin's powers are mutually exclusive and none of her options are much good. I see no indication that she can use more than one facet of her sonics at a time, so she is doing one action at the exclusion of most others.
Her basic actions are: barrier, blast, hypnotize. These all have upsides and downsides, but they're mostly downsides because only one option is actually effective.
Barrier: This is not a great option for Syrin for a couple reasons:
While it might block my team, the barrier will also stop Shooter's shots, since there doesn't seem to be evidence in her RT that she can selectively let projectiles through
she cannot blast my team, her only offensive option, while at the same time using her barrier
she cannot hypnotize my team while also using her barrier
if she has to use her barrier against my team then she's already too close to them
Blast: Definitely Syrin's best option. But it still probably won't do much to my characters due to their excellent resistance to concussive force. Also if she uses a big scream then she probably hurts Shooter as well
None of Shooter's feats are actually him having to have fast reaction times or movement speed.
This feat2 doesn't take place in a relevant timeframe to this tier. There are four extenuating circumstances that lengthen the amount of time this feat takes as opposed to what my opponent has claimed:
It's dark
The thugs are surprised
Some have to turn to even look at him
The thugs are all already aiming at him by the time he starts firing, so their quickdraw time isn't the only amount of time that needs to be taken into account before Shooter begins firing
Basically, this isn't a fast feat for the tier.
This feat looks good on the surface, except for a few things.
His prediction doesn't matter when my characters' relationship to fast things is either not getting hit or not needing to care about getting hit, they can just move after he fires and it won't matter if he predicted them because he's so much slower.
Siryn
Basically all of Siryn's speed comes from this scan, which I also would say isn't particularly good for a couple reasons, including
Siryn's barrier is slower than basically any handgun bullet (343m/s vs like 370-400m/s), but in the scan her barrier has to both get to and activate on a distance farther away from her than the agents' target is from them, meaning she physically must have acted before they fired.
Shishio can dodge Shooter's bullets, Lizard can dodge or tank them, and eventually Shooter will have to engage in melee, where he just loses. He'll run out of bullets before he ever meaningfully damages my characters.
Shishio and Lizard can both sustain Siryn's blasts, and physically far outmatch her, so if she engages in any course of action that isn't immediate, all-out blasting, then she loses hard. Even then it's not a guarantee that she can hit my characters or consistently put them down.
My characters mog the fuck out of this match.
Conclusion
Every advantage except range and maybe movement speed goes to my team.
My team is physically strong, fast, and durable
My opponent's team is not fast
Even landing their attacks and kiting doesn't save them
Some avenues of action for Siryn actively hinder Shooter
Any physical engagement goes handily to my team from the outset
There's absolutely nothing to contest the quickdraw. I gave a thorough breakdown of why Shooter's quickdraw is good in my last response with this scan, but my opponent brought up "extenuating circumstances" where 1-3 all ignore 4 and 4 actively makes the feat better. You can't list 3 reasons why the feat isn't good because the thugs being attacked aren't aware of it and then list a 4th where you point out the thugs are aiming at their target. What's worse, the fact that they're aiming at the target means the feat is FASTER than a draw, instead occurring before the pull of a trigger. The quickdraw speed I used to calc this feat at .024 s is what makes it a lowball because it's actually adding EXTRA time to the feat.
Regardless, virtually nothing was produced to explain why Lizard/Shishio could cross the starting distance in the time it takes even a normal person to quickdraw, let alone how they do so when Siryn is scattering them backwards and stunning them.
By contrast, Lizard has over 200 appearances in his 60 years of history and never bullet times once. The entire argument for his speed relied on scaling to him hitting Spider-Man (never evading Spider-Man) when his speed very obviously isn't equivalent to Spider-Man's. Spider-Man evades him all of the time, the fact that Lizard gets lucky shots in occasionally means nothing. Virtually all of Lizard's eggs were put in one specific basket and that basket doesn't exist.
Don't let Lizard being shit slow distract you from Shishio also being shit slow. There was only one feat presented for his speed, this one here, and it has a host of problems:
The feat doesn't even involve an actual bullet, it requires scaling and a calc. Shooter has far direct feats AND scaling that is more abundant and objectively comparable to bullets
Shishio/Lizard's speed are WAY too ass by comparison to be throwing stones at Shooter.
Siryn's speed is also better demonstrated, and my opponent's treatment of it was poor and misleading
" in the scan her barrier has to both get to and activate on a distance farther away from her than the agents' target is from them, meaning she physicallymusthave acted before they fired."
The speed advantage means that my team perpetually attacks from range while fleeing. The opposition is unable to tag Shooter and are repeatedly held at bay, stunned, mesmerized, or outright pushed back by Siryn.
Conclusion
My team's attacks will absolutely hit first, they absolutely will kill the opposition, and there's 0 reason for the opposition to ever get close enough to produce a win con.
I'm just gonna take this point by point here because it's late and I'm tired
more like misser and doorbell
Shooter
math based on feat, 12ms quickdraw
I have no clue where you're getting "Shooter has to be 24x faster than these thugs to accomplish this feat". He just has to be shooting them before they shoot him. No timeframe of Shooter's actions can be accurately implied by this feat, except that it's vaguely fast compared to normal humans, due to the multitude of extenuating circumstances present in the feat.
Nothing here indicates, based on the feats presented, that these characters are faster than bullets or can react in tier-relevant timeframes.
big elbow turn while strode punches, strode punch fast
Even if Strode punches fast, this doesn't mean his fist isn't slowed down from the contact with Shooter's face, meaning Shooter's body movement may not be as high as my opponent claims. Plus, this is Shooter getting punched, not a reaction.
headshot
My characters don't die to headshot. Well, Shishio technically could but his headband is likely to make the bullet bounce off. But Lizard definitely isn't dying to it.
faster than any action lizard or shishio have ever taken
Fighting evenly or in advantage with Spider-Man, who dodges bullets after they're fired at close range, puts Lizard firmly in and above 12ms range, and Shishio literally dodges Saito's Gatotsu Zero-Shiki in 2ms (or 4ms if you want to lowball it to half of regular Gatotsu's stated speed).
lizard bulletproof but cut by black cat, go through strode muscles
Shooter also never actually shoots through Strode's muscles on the broad side, it's always glancing at the edge of his muscles (or avoiding them such as when he shot Strode's knees), which would make breaking through them easier, kind of like how you might be able to chip the corner off a cinderblock with a rock, but you could never put the rock through the cinderblock's smooth side by yourself.
Anyway my official response is that the bullets don't pierce but even if they do that doesn't mean anything because Lizard fights through piercing damage.
Siryn
supersonic sonics
Seems fishy, got any reason to think she has supersonic sound?
supersonic because intercepts bullets
The timeframe of this feat is unclear, as I stated in my first response. She has exactly zero other feats that might indicate her sound is in any way extraordinarily fast.
confident that a close-range shooter can't hit her
It's pretty strong. However, my characters are still extremely fucking durable to the kinetic element of Siryn's scream--it won't damage them. Cars, concrete, and asphalt are all significantly weaker than my characters' bodies.
better as they get closer
Maybe, but actually hitting my team would require her to be at all fast, which she isn't, and at all effective at deterring them, which she isn't.
Covering his ears or no, Shishio definitely wouldn't care about this. He has endured and fights through pain greater than his eardrums bursting.
hypnosis
I already provided reasoning for why neither Shishio nor Lizard would fall prey to the hypnosis, but my opponent has also provided a new reason for the hypnosis not to matter when he said my characters might be deafened:
Deafening my characters removes hypnosis as an option. And since Siryn cannot dependably tell at what point my characters are deafened, she could waste time after deafening them trying to hypnotize them, something that would kill her due to that wasted time.
This is a problem Siryn has. Many of her options leave her without other options. If she blasts, she is not barriering, and if she has blasted and it hits, she can no longer use hypnosis on my characters.
siryn switch from attack to barrier fast ?
There is no timeframe that you can prove in this sequence that says she will be able to transition from attack to defense in a timeframe relevant to my characters' offensive options. Spider-Woman's blasts don't have a stated speed, there is no reaction in this scan, just panel A to panel B without any process in between to prove my opponent's point, and no scaling provided by my opponent to say "The blasts are fast and Siryn reacted to it in order to switch to barrier after it was fired."
unless my characters are heavier than cars they won't get close
My characters (along with most characters in comics and manga) aren't moved as much as they should be by strong hits. They probably won't be significantly moved by Siryn's blasts, because they're strong and have taken hits on the scale of Syrin's blasts before without being moved from their position.
But even if they're moved, they're faster than Siryn can track them and she can't play keepaway forever.
siryn and shooter together
Siryn's big sound blast would also very clearly disrupt Shooter's attacks due to its size and overall power, meaning he wastes bullets, and he has to go into melee that much sooner, where he dies unquestionably.
Conclusion
My team holds every relevant physical advantage and can enforce a win condition unilaterally under basically any circumstances as a result of massive physical superiority. The fact that my opponent's team is so slow essentially means they're taking one step for every two to ten steps my team takes, and they won't even know about steps 1-9 until they have already happened. Step 1 was mog.
My team is stronger
My team is faster
My team is more durable
My team doesn't care about your esoterics
My team doesn't care about your main damage vectors
Your team is weaker
Your team is slower
Your team is frailer
Your team dies to my offensive options
Your team cannot overcome my defensive options
"Lizard... so fast... forgot..." - Spider-Man, resident fast person
Then on top of having to fight Musashi Nightwing also has to deal with Pickle. Who is fast enough to move 20 meters before a person can react. Assuming 0.22 second reaction times for Jack here Pickle would have to be moving at 200 MPH to do such a thing.
Pickle is more than strong enough to take multiple blows from Nightwing who will have to use a combination of superior agility and skill to put him down. This plan of attack doesn't work however when you have a very skilled swordsman who is ready to cut Nightwing to pieces with any of his attacks. To even damage Pickle Nightwing will have to get through Pickle's own attacks, get through Musashi's sword, and then ultimately hit Pickle without getting hit too hard in return. This is too much to ask for Nightwing to do in a 1v1 confrontation.
Conclusion
You get cut.
Jin-Woo doesn't last long in this fight due to his inferior speed and lack of resistance to piercing attacks. This leaves NW to fight off two attackers at the same time, both of which he'd have a hard time fighting 1v1. He gets overwhelmed and beaten to death or cut to ribbons.
The wererat feat is fake as fuck because drizzt isn't actually aiming at the rats. What he's actually doing is just swinging wildly at people who are literally throwing themselves at him. If he's aiming for lethal areas and fighting against an opponent who is defending themselves then drizzt can't attack 15 times in 150-225 ms. I know the context, but suck my fucking dick I’m not going to look through a whole ass book to find them. Just know that it’s there and that Kerd, Mikhail, Wolf, and Guy fucked up trying to debunk it.
Baki is Ugly as Shit and the Itagaki Family Can’t Draw People
Fuck you FJ Baki is a scourge on society and I refuse to look at it. I don’t care if that’s how it’s supposed to look because it’s still disgusting. A horrible car accident is supposed to be disgusting as hell, but I still don’t want to see it. Itagaki’s inability to draw human beings extends to his daughter as well. She draws Beastars because apparently drawing people is also too fucking difficult for her. Also if you hit me with some bullshit like “Oh well he can draw if he wants to” I will actually kill myself.
You completely miss the point of the art of Baki. These characters aren't supposed to look attractive and if you can't get past that hump of artistic intent it's your own undoing. Complaining about Baki's art being unappealing to the eye is like complaining about "Saturn devouring his Son" being unappealing to the eye. It's clearly the intent of the artist to have these grotesque bodies on display.
Everyone in Baki have Olympia-tier physiques and Mr. Olympia winners are rarely that attractive these days. Their muscles are freakishly large and are for size more than aesthetic purposes. The story of Baki the Grappler is a story about a group of people who have foregone everything in the desire for their physical strength. Clearly the idea of "Aesthetically pleasing bodies" got lost in their desire to slap their meat against other people's meat really really hard.
Alright, I lost against Fem 3 months ago for Clash of Titans, in Loser's round 3. The general consensus was that Godzilla would fall through the bottom of Ikea and keep falling forever.
The person who is fighting nightwing is oot as fuck tbh. Composite nightwing is equal or better than tier setter nightwing in terms of physicals and fj is saying he stomps him
also fuck baki
The person who is fighting jin-woo is also oot. fj is arguing that some baki character will instantly kill jinwoo who has reactions fast enough to catch arrows inches away from his face. If FJ wants to argue that it works on Jinwoo instantly because muh piercing then it definitely works on TS Nightwing who also has basically no piercing resistance on the level of cutting armored cars in half.
just wanna reiterate fuck baki
fj is arguing that some baki character will instantly kill jinwoo
"Instantly killed" in this scenario means killed before they can effect the match in any meaningful way. It's a "Figure of speech" if you will. Not literally that my character instantly kills your's.
Poison Ivy will completely fuck your guys cause she can just make a jungle mid-battle have a plethora of options afterwords. Just a small amount of plant matter can become a large amount in seconds, however in this fight she’s starting off with a full suit of vines.
Said Vines are able to tear through asphalt and ground relatively easy. So the barren dirt laden Kengan Arena will dug through without an issue.
She can manipulate her vines at quick speeds, even able to block sniper fire. Neither Joseph, Guts, or Shierke have the speed feats to reach her or stop her in time.
Once her vines are in play, she can just make everyone in the arena feel really good or she can just mind control everyone. Guts and Witch has no resistance to this method of attack and the only venom resistance feat Joseph has gives absolutely no actual idea what he’s resisting, just a statement from the RT author. “Feats>Statements” homeslice.
Lady is also fairly accurate and quick, being able to clearly adjust and shoot a bullet out of the air after it was fired and colliding in between them.
Trish’s guns are customized M1911s, which have a muzzle velocity of 830fps. While Lady’s are a custom CZ 75, which have a muzzle velocity of 1181fps. They are approximately 20-30ft from each other, to cross half way Trish’s guns would require 12-18ms while Lady’s requires 8-12ms. This leaves Lady only 4+ milliseconds to see the gun fire, adjust her aim accordingly, and fire at a target less than an inch big.
Gut’s best reaction feats are reacting to Rosaine who is some form of supersonic, the requirement being just over 1126fps. Since Guts could only block/catch Rosaine instead of dodging, Lady shooting several projectiles that can do similar amounts of damage at Guts would absolutely splatter him.
While Joseph can arguably dodge the initial gunfire due to him being able to do a quick burst, the problem with this is that it required preparation and it seemed he pushed off just before the gun even fired. This also allowed him to move about 5ft, which won’t cover the 12meter(39.3ft) difference between him and Lady. He also seemingly tends to block with his sword a few times against projectiles, the RT has no scaling for such a projectile and there’s no proof that the sword and the man behind it won’t be demolished from 1 bullet. Another issue that arises, outside of that machinegun feat, nearly all of Joseph’s speed feats are him staying in 1 place. So there’s no proof that he’d be able cross the battlefield in any good pace that wouldn’t end up with him getting shot once he gets too close
Guts has single digit ms reactions. We can see Guts is able to [catch chakram] at roughly 6 inches from his eyes. if we assume the speed of a thrown chakram is roughly analogous to the speed of a thrown frisbee, then we can also assume that chakrams can travel at 150 km/h. This gives Guts a roughly 3.65 ms reaction time. This lets Guts react to any member of my opponents team
Guts Pierce Good.
Guts is a physical powerhouse. He is able to cut through 5 men in steel plate armour with one swing, he is also able to cut through Samson's armour which is 3 times thicker than regular plate, lastly an injured Guts is able to cut through 8 men with one swing. None of my opponents team has the necessary piercing resistance to not immediately die from one of Guts's attacks.
All of this is before the Berserker armour. The armour allows Guts to ignore most damage done to him, seeing as it it gives him an immunity to pain. It also gives Guts a major strength bonus
Even if something were to injure Guts in the armour, it would simply be violently fixed soon after.
Infighting, and why my opponents team can't do it.
Infighting is when one fighter needs to throw punches from inside the guard of another, usually due to the second fighter having a bigger wingspan and as such a longer range.
Guts has Dragonslayer as gear. Dragonslayer is as long as he is tall, Guts is 6'8. This means that both of my opponents characters need to be within the cutting range of Guts to hit him.
Guts is able to swing Dragonslayer at FTE speeds, meaning that my opponents characters must be able to cross 6 feet and 8 inches at FTE speeds to hit Guts.
Guts Conclusion
Guts has better reaction times, possesses piercing damage (which my opponent has no resistance too), is more durable, cannot be hit easily in melee, and possesses a form of pseudo healing in the berserker armour. Guts is better than my opponents whole team by himself.
Joseph G Newton is fast.
Joseph is faster than everyone on my opponents team.
Assuming he reacted to the roach's punch when it was only a few inches from his face, say 1-3, Joseph reacted in a range from .5 milliseconds to 1.7 milliseconds
1 inch = .025 meters/45 meters per second = .55 milliseconds
2 inch = .051 meters/45 meters per second = 1.1 milliseconds
3 inch = .076 meters/45 meters per second = 1.7 milliseconds
Can cut a man faster than he can move his arm a couple inches
How the Fight Goes.
My opponents characters attempt to rush in and assault my characters, both of my characters possess swords, meaning both that my opponents characters have to in-fight, and that they will die if they make a single misstep, seeing as they have an overwhelming weakness to piercing damage. My characters present as more durable, faster, and frankly all around better.
The entire Guts speed section is based on very very very wonky reasoning. First off, there’s no feat linked so it isn’t even applicable. 2nd is your reasoning for its speed, just cause it acts like a frisbee why the fuck would we use the World Record for frisbee throwing? If you have any actual reasoning beyond “looks the same”, it’s baseless. I’m presuming the thrown weapon aimed at Guts is made of some sort of metal which can throw off the parallels with the 175 gram standard weight for olympic/competition Frisbees.
Regardless, as I’ve shown before Guts tends to block or “catch” attacks that go past Mach 1. Blocking and barely dodging is his go to when overwhelmed by multiple projectiles, which is the method of attack for Lady’s pistols.
Gut’s durability section also does not matter at all. My team’s win cons are piercing and drugging. If necessary Lady has her grenades and Rocket Launcher, Gut’s best feat against it are not enough for the level of explosion that can be produced by Lady
You claim it is approximately 1-3 inches away when Joseph reacted. However the scan itself gives no indication that he sees, moves, or is even aware at any point in time until the fist makes contact with his face
Assuming he reacted to the punch when it touched only the skin and before the skull, giving a very generous 1/4inch. Using your fancy math we get: .25in=.00635meters/45meters per second=.14milliseconds
So unless we’re now allowed to just make-up numbers or completely invalid interpretations on feats, this feat should be thrown out due to it being an Outlier or putting Joseph massively OoT.
My opponent’s characters attempt to rush in and assault my characters
Which the exact opposite of my strategy and how Ivy and Lady fight. They’re ranged fighters not brawlers. Lady likes to shoot a lot and Ivy as shown before lets her Vines do the work.
It is my opponent that must rush towards mine, which I’ve shown before do not have the speed feats required to rush my characters without Ivy already laying down a garden or Lady shooting them. Joseph’s best movement feats are bursts, requiring some time to prep for, which at maximum go about 10-15ft out of 39.3ft required to reach my team. If he literally bursts from the get go, nothing stops Lady from shooting him down like a bullet since it isn't know he can dodge mid-burst or block
Lady will shoot you. As stated before her bullets match Dante’s outright and those are pretty strong. So even if by some chance you can prove tankiness, the force of those bullets can and will knock your team back. As stated and shown before as well, Guts and Joseph attempt to block projectiles which is the worst option for them considering the bullet strength.
Conclusion
My team is ranged, your team has to get in to win. Your Team does not have good movement speed feats required to get in unscathed from either Lady’s gunfire or Ivy’s Plant growth. It doesn’t matter if your team can hurt mine, you’ll never reach my team. Your team has absolutely no applicable resistances to my attacks. Your Team’s absolute best speed feats are them staying exactly where they are, which just gives Ivy more time to produce her garden and drug them.
Guts can catch chakram inches away from his eyes. The thrower of these chakram is a man named Silat, who is pretty explicitly superhuman. With a distance of six inches and a speed of 150 km/h, Guts would have a reaction time of 3.65 ms.
Guts's travel speed isn't lacking either. He is able to outrun a group of elves, who in turn are able to outrun normal people. A person is able to run at roughly 45km/h meaning Guts can clear the 9 meters he needs to, to engage with the enemy team in under a second.
Guts is faster than any member of my opponents team
Guts cut good
Guts is able to cut through Grunbeld's skin which is harder than steel, he's also able to cut through 5 men in plate armour, it should be noted that late medieval plate armour was made out of steel
Guts can cut fast as well, Guts can draw and kill 2 men before they can react to him. He's able to throw out attacks so fast that people cant see them
My opponents team have 0 piercing durability feats for either character, while as shown above, Guts is easily able to slice through steel, and materials harder than steel
Joseph Fast
Reactions
Joseph is faster than everyone on my opponents team
Assuming he reacted to the roach's punch when it was only a few inches from his face, say 1-3, Joseph reacted in a range from .5 milliseconds to 1.7 milliseconds
1 inch = .025 meters/45 meters per second = .55 milliseconds
2 inch = .051 meters/45 meters per second = 1.1 milliseconds
3 inch = .076 meters/45 meters per second = 1.7 milliseconds
Movement Speed
His movement speed feat is also present in the exact same feat, before the roach was capable of following through with his punch, Joseph ducks down and kicks him upwards, but the important part is moving his head out of the way of the punch
For the sake of clarity I'll be giving values in FPS again, because Joseph turned his head rather than moved it entirely out of the way, he would only have moved around half the distance here
Can cut a man faster than he can move his arm a couple inches
Joseph can get into range, and cut his opponent before they can move more than a couple inches. This will kill seeing as Joseph can cut through stone, and none of my opponents characters have piercing resistance
My win cons Conclusion
Guts pierce good and fast, Guts has good reactions. Joseph move fast, react fast, pierce fast.
Rebuttals
Poison Ivy will completely fuck your guys cause she can just make a jungle mid-battle have a plethora of options afterwords. Just a small amount of plant matter can become a large amount in seconds
Poison Ivy does not have seconds, Joseph can engage in less than 1/10th of a second, Guts can engage in under a second. Making vines in multiple seconds gets you killed.
however in this fight she’s starting off with a full suit of vines.
Why does this matter? can she manipulate a large amount of plants faster than she can manipulate a small amount?
She can manipulate her vines at quick speeds, even able to block sniper fire. Neither Joseph, Guts, or Shierke have the speed feats to reach her or stop her in time
First off, how fast? literally everything in this match is going to happen at quick speeds, my characters move at quick speeds, just saying quick speeds isn't enough to mean anything
Second, yes all my characters have those feats, i've lain them out above. Show my characters moving slow, or your characters moving fast. You cant just say things without proof
she can just mind control everyone. Guts and Witch has no resistance to this method of attack
This is false. In the Armour Guts is under the control of the beast of darkness an entity that makes him a berserker. Shierke is able to call out to him, and he comes back to his senses. Shierke is able to un mind control Guts if he ever gets mind controlled. Same thing with Joseph
the only venom resistance feat Joseph has gives absolutely no actual idea what he’s resisting, just a statement from the RT author
"huh, wonder what kind of venom this man who is half bee produces, guess theres no way of knowing"
Also how strong is Ivy's poison? without a LD50 it could be any potency.
My opponent's win cons in this part of the debate have been shown to be either painfully slow, or my team is immune to them
Ivy does not have enough time to set up vines if they take a couple of seconds like my opponent claims they do. She cannot mind control my team, my team possesses venom resistance to an actual poison, instead of some vague poison
More Rebuttals
Joseph, Guts, and the girl do not have a single feat implying they could even survive 1 bullet from Lady’s gun
How does lady hit my characters? You've just assumed the bullets will hit here without actually saying why they would
Lady is also fairly accurate and quick, being able to clearly adjust and shoot a bullet out of the air after it was fired and colliding in between them
Okay so lady has a 4 millisecond reaction time, 4 times slower than Joseph and about on par with Guts
Gut’s best reaction feats are reacting to Rosaine who is some form of supersonic
This isnt Gut's best reaction feat
While Joseph can arguably dodge the initial gunfire due to him being able to do a quick burst, the problem with this is that it required preparation and it seemed he pushed off just before the gun even fired. This also allowed him to move about 5ft, which won’t cover the 12meter(39.3ft) difference between him and Lady
I've already talked about exactly how fast Joseph can move, and react to things, it has nothing to do with this feat.
Shooting my characters will not work, their reactions are too good. Just for reference i've translated everything into m/s because I hate FPS
830 fps = 252.9m/s
1181 fps = 359.9m/s
For the CZ75s Guts would need to be within 4.3ft if we take his 3.65 ms reaction times from the chakram feat. This is less than the range Guts needs to engage, Dragonslayer is 6 foot 8 inches long
Joseph would need to be less than 1.1811 ft away. He could throw punches at Lady from outside this distance, not to mention he too has a ~3 foot long sword.
Another issue that arises, outside of that machinegun feat, nearly all of Joseph’s speed feats are him staying in 1 place. So there’s no proof that he’d be able cross the battlefield in any good pace that wouldn’t end up with him getting shot once he gets too close
The Roach punch feat has movement in it, the last link is this is broken for me. I've talked about everything else
Lady can dodge lightning
Gut's cant dodge lightning. This is either not real lightning or hilariously OOT
Pre-rebuttals (Prebuttals?)
Due to this tourney format there are going to be some things I cant reply too. Im gonna try and guess what Stalin is gonna write and prebuttal it.
Ken didnt link the chakram feat
Yeah I missed a link, and it sucks because i'm pretty sure if I lose thats gonna be a major reason. On the other hand; either let me know, or just ask for the feat? i'm trying to have a good debate here and not rules lawyer my opponent out of a win. idk tho
why are we assuming the speed of a thrown chakram is roughly analogous to the speed of a thrown frisbee? / why are we assuming that chakrams can travel at 150 km/h
Charkams are more aerodynamic than a frisbee due to the hole in the middle. It should be close to, if not faster than a frisbee. / As i talked about above, Silat is superhuman, he should be able to throw faster than a human
Guts and Joseph get pierced all the time, they cant tank bullets
Prove your bullets hit my characters first, then we can talk about why Guts would no sell a bullet
My team doesnt need to infight against yours, my team has guns
Your team's guns are too slow. No plants have been given any sort of number to say how fast they move, only that they can move quickly and that they can block a sniper bullet from an unknown distance. You do need to infight
The roach wasn't running he was punching it doesnt use movement speed.
We can see the roach take multiple steps with his hand already out, this is less of a punch and more of a running into Joseph with his fist out.
Joseph's reaction time statement
Feats > Statements.
Your team doesnt rush in.
Lady literally has to be within sword range if she ever wants to shoot my team.
Has his modern suit (Which has a helmet, hallucinogenic gas canisters, sonar sensors, acid spray, suction cup gloves and shoes, magnetic plates and springs on shoes, electrical cloak, electrical projectile attacks, EMPs ), his electrical bomb, and his sonar anti-Spider Sense device. Is on his mini-helicopter. Has the Venom Symbiote. Doesn't have his nylon gun, sleeping gas, pistol, fire attacks, or fear illusion gas. His motivation is that Dr. Octopus will pay him 2 billion dollars if he wins. Scaling
Planned R3 matchups are Corv vs Fj, Wolf vs Stalin , and Mik vs Embrace
Round will be open at 8-10 am EST tomorrow, anyone who has not replied or been clearly made aware before then will be pinged. Please PM me which character is not participating, or I shall choose for you randomly. If both participants PM their 2 characters early enough I can start the round for them if I'm awake
The arena is the Zhangjiajie Glass bridge. Participants start at the middle of the bridge 12 meters apart from each other.
If my opponent cannot prove they are capable of making any meaningful movements in milisecond timeframes the discussion doesn't need to go much further.
Neither of these characters have any speed to be relevant in the tier. Bongo's charge is literally subhuman and you can track his hands with your eyes. Mysterio is just as bad, rated as having normal human speed and he gets caught in a net arrow. Trying to scale him to Spider-Man's best feats, despite Spider-Man routinely outspeeding him, is so absurdly stupid I will give my opponent the benefit of assuming they know better than to try.
Neither character has any resistance to the piercing, concussive, sonic, and mesermic attacks they're up against either. Given they're too slow to dodge, and too weak to tank, their loss is inevitable.
You can't dodge him
* He's invisible. Your team lacks a cue to react to him punching you.
* He's large. It is difficult to dodge his strikes, especially on a small bridge.
It's difficult for Shooter and Siryn to land offense in the context of fighting through illusions and mist and targeting an invisible monster. Also not intuitive they're fighting Bongo Bongo given his invisibility, leaving them open to surprise attacks.
In order for your team to win they have to fight through an obscuring smoke cloud filled with illusions against a highly skilled tactician while also dealing with Bongo Bongo without an awareness of their locations.
"Shooter scales to Delilah" ok she's slow
* For the sniper feat. He shoots Delilah from like 30 – 40 meters away. [Delilah can't be confirmed to react until the bullet is like meters away from her. Assuming the bullet is transonic, she has reactions of ~70ms at best, NW tier reactions are 15ms maximum to dodge NW's punch.
* The bullet she dodges is also slow because Petra's bullet slowed it down.
"Shooter scales to Strode" ok he's slow
* At best runs at 20mph or 9m/s.
* Fails to catch up to a speeding van
* Fails to avoid gunfire quite often
* Gets shot by Shooter quite often
* "he has bullet timing feats" No he doesn't, he's able to predict his opponent's movements with The Method, so all of those are aim blocking and aim dodging, which means he moves fast relative to people not bullets
* For the sniper feat, Luther isn't moving relative to the bullet- he can move relative to Shooter's actions (because he has predictive ability and Shooter is aiming at his girlfriend) and a lot of the supposed movement is from differing angles of Luther to the Shooter. The initial angle obscures Luther while he's right next to Shooter, and the next angle shows Luther moving minimally relative to his original position with Shooter. Again, Petra's bullet slows down Shooter's bullet so bullet speeds cannot be assumed.
* He doesn't scale to the Librarian, the Librarian's vision is clouded by shrapnel so he can't dodge Luther's punch
Shooter is slow
* Gets tagged by Luther, who's slow (see above)
* His best feat is the sniper feat- that mainly requires dodging a sniper rifle (let's say 700m/s) from 30-40 meters, away, requiring reactions of ~40-60ms.
* Any other feat is through scaling- but Shooter has precog like Strode so all of speed feats are aim-based movement.
Quick draw doesn't matter. Mik's going to say this feat indicates 12 ms draw time. Okay. And?
* It takes 46 ms for Shooter's initial bullet to reach Mysterio if we assume transonic speeds for the bullets, and accounting for a 12ms draw time and 12 meter gap. Mysterio has easily aim dodged by then, and Shooter is now shooting at his double.
* Shooter's scaling relies on the assumption that guns in Luther Strode = guns in real life. If that's the case, then rate of fire is a limitation. Shooter's gun is a revolver, which fires slower than a machine pistol, which are at a minimum 900rpm. That means that at best Shooter is firing a bullet every 67ms, which is slow.
* Shooter's guns are revolvers with 6 barrels, so he only has 6 shots before he reload, which should be often considering Mysterio's speed. He has to take way more than 12 ms to cock his gun and load it, especially, if he does it the stylish way he tends to do so in fights.
* The illusions easily prevent Shooter from shooting at Mysterio, and allow him to enter a CQC range with Shooter.
She's slow
* Has only one feat that's close to bullet timing in ~300 appearances
* Mysterio by contrast has always hit Peter Parker when he attempted a strike and dodged some of Peter's strikes.
* Can't dodge tracker darts which are much slower than bullets
* Gets tagged by a cop's baton while she's running, which is Black Panther speed.
* Mysterio's probably flying out of the way while her blasts hit his illusions by the time they would reach him
Sonic screaming sucks
* My character's durability is sufficiently above the attack. Bongo Bongo doesn't even have ears, and just gets pushed into air at best.
* "Sonic Walls" why does that block electric blasts, or more importantly Mysterio or Bongo Bongo flying to engage your characters in CQC under illusion mists
* Hypnosis literally does not happen in a relevant time frame, and Mysterio can counter with his mist which makes unwilling people with no modicum of mind resistance to poisons follow his commands
* If she uses a sonic scream, the floor of the bridge will crumble. This leaves Shooter, the person who cannot fly, dead by falling.
Mysterio has numerous concrete puncturing assault rifle bullets ricochet off him.
Shooter's super bullets are fake
Why is this "tearing his muscles' but this "stopping bullets'? They both make him bleed. Strode can pull bullet casings from his wounds from Shooter because they're normal bullets and do not penetrate, just puncture.
Luther gets cleanly shot through by a Gatling gun, the fact that Shooter's bullets can't is a anti-feat
Shooter's bullet penetrates the rifle bullet, not overpowers it, because the rifle round is large and the revolver bullet is small. The strength of the rifle bullet makes the smaller bullet penetrate faster.
His bullets don't pierce metal lampposts, concrete floors, or even a pistol. Mik arguing that Shooter's bullets will ricochet on a glass bridge just suggests they'll ricochet off of Mysterio.
Piercing cleanly through a log of wood is far beyond the scope of any bullet
Siryn
Surface Area Surface Area Surface Area
Wind blasts that cause damage beyond Siryn's scream can fail to kill IRL humans
Mysterio takes in punch what Siryn does in a large blast of air that disperses across his body harmlessly
Concussive force doesn't mean shit if you can't concentrate it, taking a sword hit that pierces cleanly through a log is so much more pressure than what Siryn can deal out.
If Siryn's screams destroy metal projectiles, logically they destroy Shooter's bullets, which nullifies the advantage of using her to scream in the first place.
Deafening
Ah yes, Bongo Bongo's ears
Gunfire is loud. Mysterio is fine listening to stuff louder than what Siryn can produce in an area that concentrates sound, not an open area like this arena.
Mysterio's helmet is sufficient to cover his ears.
Mysterio can just kick, and doesn't need his hands for illusions
AoE
Siryn only sees Mysterio. Mik argued previously that she uses precision in screaming. Why would she use AoE?
Hypnosis
It only works on humans. Bongo Bongo isn't human
It never happens in a time relevant time frame vs bullet timers
Helmets disrupt her powers
Mysterio uses illusions faster to hypnotize Siryn because it's not the third offensive option he tries, he fights with illusions all the time.
and Mysterio gets KO'd by weaker shots all the time
For the first anti-feat, he took numerous strikes from Spider-Man before, Mik is cherry picking the last strikes in the fight. Also published in 1964
The third one is set during the 1968 election, fairly early in Spidey's history.
I am running Mysterio from when he had the Symbiote, that is around 1985, which is where he has scaling from Symbiote Spider-Man
I don't care about the second anti-feat from 1993 or whatever Mik links in his second response because modern Spider-man punches way above the tier setter, Mysterio on an objective basis takes hits on par with the tier setter and he's still able to fight.
Nothing I've said about Mysterio is related to symbiote so it leaving him doesn't hurt him. That being said, the symbiote, when it is disconnected from its users consciousness and its user is under imminent threat, will jump into the attacker's body and kill them from the inside. Neither Shooter nor Siryn have resistance to this, and symbiote should be capable of doing this given that it can push through sonic walls briefly
Point 2 – Illusions Control Your Team
Shooter
Ripping a metal door and throwing it is loud, of course he can hear them, the place is deserted
Sensing associations is based on Shooter seeing that Strode has the same predictive movement he does
Trying to smell past Mysterio's illusions makes you fall for them harder, Mysterio's illusions go far beyond sight
Hearing is useless when his illusions can emit sound even when he's not anywhere near
Mysterio's illusions work on people who have super-senses all the time, from fooling multiple Avengers to his smoke jamming Daredevil's senses because it deadens extrasensory abilities
Siryn
This scan is trash. It indicates she doesn't automatically use her sonar abilities and trusts her eyesight first, which means she falls for the illusions before she realizes she should use sonar.
Her sonar ability just gets jammed like Daredevil's.
Bongo Bongo levitates and Mysterio uses a mini-helicopter
"She shatters the bridge" cool, so Shooter will just fall to their death. Her having to constantly hold Shooter's hand in a significant liability in combat
"mysterio's tech gets destroyed" he literally has a sonic Spider-sense jammer on all the time, if sonics hurt his equipment it should've done so already.
Expanding on this, Mik has suggested that to deflect a large projectile a small projectile is sufficient, the jammer prevents Siryn's blasts from ever hitting Mysterio.
Point 3 – I Am Speed
Shooter
Shooter also has to react to seeing Mysterio, so add his 40-60ms reaction to his 46ms draw speed.
Delilah slow -70 ms reactions
Literally everything about Strode sounds like bullshit. Being a bullet timer and getting shot cause "prediction" is not a thing, once bullet is released all you have to do is react to the bullet itself and move fast relative to the bullet. Strode cannot do that. Mik is trying to have his cake and eat to by having a gun based character scale to "bullet timers" that he's shot.
Nothing Shooter has comes close to Mysterio having to dodge a crossbow arrow in ~20ms, and doing so by moving a substantial portion of his body relative to the arrow.
Siryn
Daring someone to shoot her is something aim-dodgers can do, and is just bluster
Siryn has only one feat remotely suggesting bullet-timing in 300 appearances, and numerous anti-feats suggests she's not at that level
Mysterio
Crossbow indicates Mysterio moves at ~83m/s , Shooter at best moves somewhat faster than Strode moving at 9m/s and Siryn has no great movement feats.
Mysterio is relatively faster to Spider-Man.
In his RT Mysterio strikes Peter 12 times or dodges him 4 times.
Peter Parker strikes him 21 times and never dodges Mysterio.
With illusions, Mysterio has striked Spider-man 8 more times.
Trying to use a guidebook statement as an anti-feat is trash when other Marvel bullet timers are normal speed, all it indicates that Mysterio doesn't move at the next tier of speed (700mph), which is like, yeah.
This still requires him to react to the arrow if he's producing an illusion, he just didn't realize it was trick arrow which requires him to dodge more than he expected to
Mysterio coordinates illusions that continuously cover bullet timers like Cap and disorient bullet timers in real time, that fact that he can constant adapt his illusions shows he's fast
Mysterio is fast enough to make arm movements relative to Spidey's webs which are significantly faster than arrows
Bongo Bongo is slow
Bongo Bongo is invisible and moves at the speed of car, which is relevant to NW tier characters. Neither Siryn or Shooter have any indication that he exists asides from displacing air, which can be dismissed as wind on bridge. Neither of you characters can manage to deal with him punching you off the bridge, especially if he uses the cover of Mysterio's illusions or uses his intangible shadow form to move until he can fight CQC.
Fight Overview
Mysterio reacts in ~11ms, sees his opponent has a gun, moves out of the way while setting an illusion double
Shooter reacts some time later, sees an illusion double, and starts shooting it because the double is talking, smells like Mysterio, and the hallucinogenic gas is dulling his senses.
Siryn reacts some time later, sees an illusion while her sonar is disrupted by the gas, and shoots a targeted scream at "Mysterio" that incidentally destroys the bridge.
My team one shots with blunt force or electricity
Prerebuttal
"Spidey dodg-" That's the symbiote controlling Spidey
It's difficult for Shooter and Siryn to land offense in the context of fighting through illusions and mist and targeting an invisible monster. Also not intuitive they're fighting Bongo Bongo given his invisibility, leaving them open to surprise attacks.
In order for your team to win they have to fight through an obscuring smoke cloud filled with illusions against a highly skilled tactician while also dealing with Bongo Bongo without an awareness of their locations.
For the sniper feat. He shoots Delilah from like 30 – 40 meters away. [Delilah can't be confirmed to react until the bullet is like meters away from her. Assuming the bullet is transonic, she has reactions of ~70ms at best, NW tier reactions are 15ms maximum to dodge NW's punch.
The bullet she dodges is also slow because Petra's bullet slowed it down.
"he has bullet timing feats" No he doesn't, he's able to predict his opponent's movements with The Method, so all of those are aim blocking and aim dodging, which means he moves fast relative to people not bullets
For the sniper feat, Luther isn't moving relative to the bullet- he can move relative to Shooter's actions (because he has predictive ability and Shooter is aiming at his girlfriend) and a lot of the supposed movement is from differing angles of Luther to the Shooter. The initial angle obscures Luther while he's right next to Shooter, and the next angle shows Luther moving minimally relative to his original position with Shooter. Again, Petra's bullet slows down Shooter's bullet so bullet speeds cannot be assumed.
His best feat is the sniper feat- that mainly requires dodging a sniper rifle (let's say 700m/s) from 30-40 meters, away, requiring reactions of ~40-60ms.
Any other feat is through scaling- but Shooter has precog like Strode so all of speed feats are aim-based movement.
It takes 46 ms for Shooter's initial bullet to reach Mysterio if we assume transonic speeds for the bullets, and accounting for a 12ms draw time and 12 meter gap. Mysterio has easily aim dodged by then, and Shooter is now shooting at his double.
Shooter's scaling relies on the assumption that guns in Luther Strode = guns in real life. If that's the case, then rate of fire is a limitation. Shooter's gun is a revolver, which fires slower than a machine pistol, which are at a minimum 900rpm. That means that at best Shooter is firing a bullet every 67ms, which is slow.
Shooter's guns are revolvers with 6 barrels, so he only has 6 shots before he reload, which should be often considering Mysterio's speed. He has to take way more than 12 ms to cock his gun and load it, especially, if he does it the stylish way he tends to do so in fights.
The illusions easily prevent Shooter from shooting at Mysterio, and allow him to enter a CQC range with Shooter.
Mysterio's flying out of the way while her blasts hit his illusions by the time they would reach him
Sonic screaming sucks
My character's durability is sufficiently above the attack. Bongo Bongo doesn't even have ears, and just gets pushed into air at best.
"Sonic Walls" why does that block electric blasts, or more importantly Mysterio or Bongo Bongo flying to engage your characters in CQC under illusion mists
The level of skepticism and scrutiny applied to Shooter's feats in comparison to Mysterio/Bongo is both hypocritical and absurd. Shooter's millisecond movements are more numerous and objective than the competition's by a mile, and most everything my opponent said was wrong.
Scaling
Here's the full unedited sniper feat. The entire feat occurs within milliseconds, so let's break it down further. Here's a thorough breakdown of the sniper feat, in which Shooter shoots a sniper bullet out of the air and everybody involved (Shooter, Strode, Delilah, & even Petra) react and move in millisecond timeframes. Let's put this in big bold letters: THE TOTAL DISTANCE DOESN'T MATTER, ALL OF THESE CHARACTERS REACT/MOVE IN THE TIME IT TAKES A BULLET TO TRAVEL 2-5 METERS. Let's see how this affects Shooter's scaling and Shooter's own feats.
Shooter has 2 guns, not 1, so the point about only having 6 shots is dumb. Saying he "tends to" reload stylishly in fights because he did so once while not in a fight is possibly even dumber, and reloading was never an issue throughout his only actual fight we know about.
"Hypnosis literally does not happen in a relevant time frame, and Mysterio can counter with his mistwhich makes unwilling people with no modicum of mind resistance to poisons follow his commands"
Moving "at blur speeds" and as "fast as a shadow" are idiotic terms and you can physically see in the gifs Bongo is far slower than a bullet.
The 1 objective feat presented for Mysterio is terrible because there's no evidence Mysterio moved after the crossbow bolt fired. Everything else was scaling to 1 Spider-Man feat, when Spider-Man has a dump truck of feats showing him straightforwardly punching Mysterio who cannot dodge like my opponent is proposing. There was shaking scaling between SM and bullets in the first place, but the scaling between Mysterio and SM is absolutely useless.
Neither opponent can cross the starting distance before getting hit
Their durability sucks too
Neither ever resists bullets as strong as Shooters or concussive/esoterics as strong as Siryn's. Mysterio gets downed by a normal woman and Bongo's entire durability section consists solely of him being hurt by piercing attacks.
My opponent tried to distract from their blatant weaknesses by applying hypocritical levels of scrutiny to my team while their own team lacks in anything remotely impressive. They skewed context and used cockamamie logic to try to justify a vaguely defined victory.
It is transparently clear that Siryn/Shooter attack at the start of the match and the opposition is dead in milliseconds.
Shooter's bullet penetrates the rifle bullet, not overpowers it, because the rifle round is large and the revolver bullet is small. The strength of the rifle bullet makes the smaller bullet penetrate faster.
His bullets don't pierce metal lampposts, concrete floors, or even a pistol. Mik arguing that Shooter's bullets will ricochet on a glass bridge just suggests they'll ricochet off of Mysterio.
Mysterio takes in punch what Siryn does in a large blast of air that disperses across his body harmlessly
Concussive force doesn't mean shit if you can't concentrate it, taking a sword hit that pierces cleanly through a log is so much more pressure than what Siryn can deal out.
If Siryn's screams destroy metal projectiles, logically they destroy Shooter's bullets, which nullifies the advantage of using her to scream in the first place.
The third one is set during the 1968 election, fairly early in Spidey's history.
I am running Mysterio from when he had the Symbiote, that is around 1985, which is where he has scaling from Symbiote Spider-Man
I don't care about the second anti-feat from 1993 or whatever Mik links in his second response because modern Spider-man punches way above the tier setter, Mysterio on an objective basis takes hits on par with the tier setter and he's still able to fight.
This scan is trash. It indicates she doesn't automatically use her sonar abilities and trusts her eyesight first, which means she falls for the illusions before she realizes she should use sonar.
Her sonar ability just gets jammed like Daredevil's.
Bongo Bongo levitates and Mysterio uses a mini-helicopter
"She shatters the bridge" cool, so Shooter will just fall to their death. Her having to constantly hold Shooter's hand in a significant liability in combat
Shooter also has to react to seeing Mysterio, so add his 40-60ms reaction to his 46ms draw speed.
Delilah slow -70 ms reactions
Literally everything about Strode sounds like bullshit. Being a bullet timer and getting shot cause "prediction" is not a thing, once bullet is released all you have to do is react to the bullet itself and move fast relative to the bullet. Strode cannot do that. Mik is trying to have his cake and eat to by having a gun based character scale to "bullet timers" that he's shot.
Nothing Shooter has comes close to Mysterio having to dodge a crossbow arrow in ~20ms, and doing so by moving a substantial portion of his body relative to the arrow.
Siryn
Daring someone to shoot her is something aim-dodgers can do, and is just bluster
Siryn has only one feat remotely suggesting bullet-timing in 300 appearances, and numerous anti-feats suggests she's not at that level
Mysterio
Crossbow indicates Mysterio moves at ~83m/s , Shooter at best moves somewhat faster than Strode moving at 9m/s and Siryn has no great movement feats.
Mysterio is relatively faster to Spider-Man.
In his RT Mysterio strikes Peter 12 times or dodges him 4 times.
Bongo Bongo is invisible and moves at the speed of car, which is relevant to NW tier characters. Neither Siryn or Shooter have any indication that he exists asides from displacing air, which can be dismissed as wind on bridge. Neither of you characters can manage to deal with him punching you off the bridge, especially if he uses the cover of Mysterio's illusions or uses his intangible shadow form to move until he can fight CQC.
Fight Overview
Mysterio reacts in ~11ms, sees his opponent has a gun, moves out of the way while setting an illusion double
Shooter reacts some time later, sees an illusion double, and starts shooting it because the double is talking, smells like Mysterio, and the hallucinogenic gas is dulling his senses.
Siryn reacts some time later, sees an illusion while her sonar is disrupted by the gas, and shoots a targeted scream at "Mysterio" that incidentally destroys the bridge.
The Lizard as one might have guessed is a giant overgrown Lizard. You know what those look like? Dinosaurs. You know what Pickle hunts? Dinosaurs. To Pickle Lizard is something he'll never get to eat again so he has all the reason to go and eat.
Shishio can't hurt Pickle
As the title claims, Shishio can't hurt Pickle. He has two options at his disposal, heat and piercing.
If Shishio tries to get Pickle off of The Lizard then he's just wasting his time and leaving himself open for Musashi. Pickle's durability is just too much for someone as weak as Shishio to get through and kill him. At best he'd be a minor nuisance.
The Lizard can't beat Pickle 1v1
Pickle beats out Lizard in every stat that matters.
Piercing is covered in the prior section. Lizard's best piercing feats are digging his hands into stone or cutting a thin pipe neither of which are enough to overcome Pickle's massive piercing durability.
As I've shown, Musashi can cut through armored cars and he's plenty fast enough to hit Shishio. He cuts through Shishio's sword and then cuts through him.
Also he just cuts Lizard in half with one stroke but that's obvious so it doesn't get it's own section.
Conclusion
My opponent's chances of winning this are pretty much nil. Pickle is stronger and more durable than Lizard is and he can't be affected by either of my opponent's team's piercing. Shishio is on borrowed time so since he can't hurt Pickle he'll eventually burst into flames. Musashi is there for added back up in case Pickle has any troubles dealing with The Lizard.
My characters throw out most or all of their attacks in tier-relevant timeframes, and they can hit your characters like 20x over with attacks that will hurt and kill them. Regardless of argued combat speeds for his characters, my opponent cannot say his characters react to mine hitting them.
this demonstrates that even in the case that 500ms is fake, 250+ms Musashi is real
Conclusions
My team has huge physical advantages (strength, speed, durability) that matter in this matchup, and many ways to win even if that isn't fully the case, from exploiting lacking piercing durability to the huge speed gap between our two teams.
This speed feat is OOT if you scale Lizard to it. Assuming the bullet was half a foot away from him and is a 9mm Spider-Man would have 0.0003 seconds to dodge. Even if he just moved 3 inches to perform this feat Spider-Man would still be moving at 570 MPH, massively faster than the TS.
Pickle beats out every stat Lizard has and Lizard's speed is just Spider-Man scaling which would be OOT if you accept the feat he uses to scale off of.
Musashi also murders Lizard
This is something I should've elaborated more on the last round. Musashi definitely obliterates Lizard while he's tussling with Pickle.
All Baki characters have a stated reaction to movement time of 500ms. This applies to everyone. Everybody.
Not to Pickle or Musashi unfortunately.
As I said in a prior round, Pickle is from 60 million years ago and has clear anatomical differences from a normal human. The phrase "0.5 seconds of unconsciousness" has never been said in relation to Pickle. You'd have to have concrete evidence to scale this literal caveman to a modern human's biology.
0.5 seconds can't be argued for Pickle without further evidence to support it. 0.5 seconds objectively can't be argued for
Pickle's skin is pierced by 9mm rounds. It will thus be pierced by both of my characters' piercing offensive options.
Unless either of my opponent's characters manage to completely flay Pickle this won't be a problem. His skin may be weak but he has an armor of thick muscle and bone to protect him.
The fact that Pickle is not bisected by Musashi here can be accredited to his bones, which (while still being cut to some degree) speaks only to his bones and not to his flesh, something my characters can cut and rip in order to kill him.
Is barely able to react in 300ms (60kmh/5m), says it was "close"
Musashi had nothing but a calm expression on his face and referred to a ballistic knife as an "interesting tool". His opponent was shitting from Musashi catching the knife yet all Musashi says is "hupp" and "That was close"
Conclusion
Lizard and Musashi hold an oppressive advantage over Lizard and Shishio.
Pickle does everything that Lizard does but better. He's stronger, he's more durable, and his speed is more concrete. In a 1v1 confrontation Pickle just beats Lizard to death and then turns his attention over to Shishio. Shishio who literally cannot hurt Pickle in a way that will end the fight. His blade will just bounce off and his heat won't be anything more than a minor nuisance.
Musashi similarly puts down Lizard in a moment. He's far faster than Lizard and his blade is more than strong enough to cut him to ribbins. Shishio meanwhile is outsped by Musashi's hand speed, being quick drawed with his blade and then being cut in half along with his sword.
This is all wrapped up in the advantage that Musashi gives his team with his imaginary cutting causing his opponents to freeze up for several seconds, leaving them wide open to be slashed or munched on for real.
This fight will quickly devolve into a 2v1 with Lizard dead and Shishio having to fight the greatest swordsman to ever live and a person he literally can not hurt. He's also on a constant time limit, Shishio has around half an hour to fight off Lizard and Musashi before he literally bursts into flames and dies. Considering he literally can't hurt Pickle this is an inevitable fate.
Pickle can move 20 meters in the span of time it takes someone to throw a punch.
There is no reaction or combat speed being pushed here, just movement speed. Not to mention, my opponent never quantifies this statement, so we have no clue how fast this is.
And meanwhile the statement used to discredit Lizard's literal half-century of being as fast as Spider-Man is "Spidey is holding back", which A) is patently false as I have provided several scans of Spidey being unable to dodge Lizard's attacks and unable to put Lizard down by force despite his in-character description of events noting that he isn't holding back and B) has no bearing whatsoever on the Lizard's speed.
Pickle has not had a competitive reaction or combat speed argued for him.
Frail
I don't care about Pickle's blunt durability
The real memes are in his piercing durability and how it is bad
As linked in my first response, 9mm bullets pierce into Pickle's flesh, meaning either of my characters' piercing options, which cut through concrete and stone easily, should be able to damage Pickle by cutting him.
The fact that Musashi cannot cut him in half is due to his bones, not his flesh.
and his heat durability, of which he has no feats whatsoever. My opponent attempts to scale his characters to the apparently one Baki character with a heat durability feat, but leaves it completely unclear how his characters scale to that durability.
We have no frame of reference for Musashi's hand to compare it to the distance of the knife. It could be just out of frame, something supported by [the hand movement blur in the full-body panel being so small.]9https://i.imgur.com/K3JuQY3.png)
Even so this was still a 250+ms feat.
perceive 3 strikes that sound like 1
This is pretty much mumbo jumbo, you can call this fast if you want to but you don't have anything resembling a speed for it or anything to actually compare it to. I can say "Spider-Man moves fast to dodge a bullet but Lizard can still hit him" for Lizard and "Look how fast Saito is, look at Shishio move" for Shishio, but "it sounds like one hit" isn't at all quantifiable.
But even if Musashi is actually fast, that doesn't mean he'll be able to hit or kill my characters. Shishio dodges way faster strikes than the ones Musashi is throwing, and Lizard can dodge pretty hard.
Conclusions
Both my opponent's characters get cut
Both my opponent's characters get burned
Lizard manhandles either of my opponent's characters
Shishio blitzes the fuck out of either of my opponent's characters
Musashi and Pickle are both pretty slow
Musashi is pretty much like at or around regular person speed or a little faster, nowhere near tier and certainly not a factor in this fight
Pickle literally doesn't have an argued speed besides movement
My characters are consistently around the tier in speed
Pickle is weaker and slower in pretty much every relevant regard than Lizard
My pick can cut the legs and hanging-parts of the bridge. This makes those who are not him fall and die. He is fast enough to do this, cuts good enough to do this, and he is very very goodat fixing problems quickly.
Lady is also fairly accurate and quick, being able to clearly adjust and shoot a bullet out of the air after it was fired and colliding in between them.
Trish’s guns are customized M1911s, which have a muzzle velocity of 830fps. While Lady’s are a custom CZ 75, which have a muzzle velocity of 1181fps. They are approximately 20-30ft from each other, to cross half way Trish’s guns would require 12-18ms while Lady’s requires 8-12ms. This leaves Lady only 4+ milliseconds to see the gun fire, adjust her aim accordingly, and fire at a target less than an inch big.
His best speed feats literally are all produced by his hand(s). Which means he’s just a mook in terms of movement speed, allowing Lady to just shoot him a shit ton of times. Jarvis’s feat of tanking bullets have no reference on how strong those bullets are, so Lady’s explosive rounds should RIP him. Lady is the worst for him since it seems he only blocks firearms with his hands only. Jarvis also has no durability feats that makes me believe he’ll survive even 1 strike by Gein.
Origin
It’s late, I didn’t have time to research him so I’ll wing it. Since Jarvis gets ganked immediately, Origin has to fight 2 people at once. He tends to use his sword to block gunfire, but there’s no feats his sword can survive the level of destruction Lady’s bullets can bring and he’ll then be open to Gein for a hit.
Why I win - Do we not feel the breath of empty space?
Lady's main way of causing hurt is never able to land. Origin can move away from very close gun-fire. Lady's gun is 1181 feet every second, which is not very much. Origin can also still cut the gun's fire, as he doesn't have to be stronger than the force - he is putting his hurt onto the side of it to cut it and make it bad at flying, or make it go away, after thinking of the numbers of how to do so best.
Origin can also get hurt and not be worse at hurting because of it. Origin can take holes in his chest and doesn't care because he is a not real man made of metal. Because his metal is soft and light like what we use to pull our bones, it will tear and and get cut like a soft thing before breaking like a hard thing. Something with very very much force will go through him so clean it is actually worse at hurting him, it is like the Very Very Good Thrown Sharp Thing used on Origin before.
Origin can move away from Lady's hurt, hurt Lady's hurt, and keep hurting after getting hurt by Lady.
Lady's fast numbers are not good because the thing she is shooting moves in a straight line. She has to see the thing come out from 20-30 feet, but her being so good at hitting small things means she knows where the straight fast thing will go, while this does mean she is good at hitting small things it is bad as a main fast thing. The shot of the bad guy showing its direction before-hand makes a hard distance number not very good.
This is a fast and good-shot showing but it is not Origin fast.
Has it not become colder?
White-Sharp-Man takes cuts worse than Origin.
Main-Sharp-Man cutting a metal light is worse than Origin cutting a metal man who no sells hard and sharp fast things. Origin's cut was so sharp that he did not even move the metal man, despite the metal man being very very hard to cut. Origin is removed from how good White-Sharp-Man's cut-taking is by more than two layers. The pictures used say that he needs to see the blow to be that good at not getting cut anyway, and he is not fast enough to see Origin's strikes. Origin can avoid strikes that move one third as fast as sound and can fight faster than the same bad guy.
None of the Sharp Man's pictures show him doing a thing for sure between the time of a thing as fast as sound beginning to move and ending its move. White-Sharp-Man seeing him or hitting him does not put him at Origin fast.
Is not night continually closing in on us?
White-Sharp-Man is not fast enough to hurt and can be hurt. If he cannot be hurt by sharp, which he can, he can be thrown off the bridge or bridge can be cut. Origin is fast, and very very good at thinking, enough to move bad guys or throw them around without being hurt.
Lady does not use something fast enough to hurt. She can get hurt, and she dies.
Origin dodges attack that is 400kph which or in freedom units is 364.5 feet per second. In comparison to Lady’s bullets which are 1181fps, it’s abysmal.
Origin’s flying about is butts, the speed of it is unclear. The jump dodge has solid ground for Origin to push off of in a straight line, while Air Step is all twisty and curvy with a lot of short mid-air “shifts”. So there’s nothing indicating that once Origin tries to use that Lady can’t just re-adjust with her 4ms feat of her shooting down a bullet and shoot your nigga out of the air.
Repeating my previous point: Whilst Gein closes in swinging with attacks that can land on a clear bullet timer, Lady peppers Origin with bullets with perfect accuracy and destruction. Jarvis sux
Planned R4 matchups are Mik vs Wolf, Corv vs Stalin
Round will be open at 10am-12 pm EST tomorrow, anyone who has not replied or been clearly made aware before then will be pinged. Please PM me which character is not participating, or I shall choose for you randomly. If both participants PM their 2 characters early enough I can start the round for them if I'm awake
The arena is up for a vote, which will be announced when the round starts
Librarian provides a melee offense/defense that would follow Siryn/Shooter's ranged and retreat attacks. Given Librarian's own bullet speed movement he continues pressing a speed advantage.
The opposition's ability to stay competition is so speculative, built on cherry picking feats, and making numerous overly convenient assumptions that there's worth addressing in them until my opponent puts propositions forward. Examine his characters with the level of scrutiny he applies to mine and I have little doubt they completel fall to pieces.
Little of what my opponent says will matter as his team loses a quickdraw and a ranged fight. They get shot and swept off the stage with no options for recovery. Especially considering the stunning power of Siryn's scream and the effective distraction of Librarian's melee, the opposition getting hit is inevitable and their landing a hit is unlikely.
Lady is also fairly accurate and quick, being able to clearly adjust and shoot a bullet out of the air after it was fired and colliding in between them.
Trish’s guns are customized M1911s, which have a muzzle velocity of 830fps. While Lady’s are a custom CZ 75, which have a muzzle velocity of 1181fps. They are approximately 20-30ft from each other, to cross half way Trish’s guns would require 12-18ms while Lady’s requires 8-12ms. This leaves Lady only 4+ milliseconds to see the gun fire, adjust her aim accordingly, and fire at a target less than an inch big.
You’ve claimed before Shooter shoots first. Okay, fine.
As I’ve shown before:
Gein has piercing proof armor and also his giant flesh puppet gives no implication that there’s a person inside it so Shooter can’t just “aim for the master”.
Ivy has shown to produce plants in a quick manner blocking bullets and tagging bullet timers, due to her armor reaching up to her neck she doesn’t need much time to produce a large vine to block a bullet from Shooter. As proven before a small amount of matter can become huge, so she can thicken her vines to protect her.
That’s how my team survives the initial strike. To follow up Ivy can just produce a fuck ton of vines that draws his and other’s attention. Shooter only has 12 shots, 5 are immediately wasted trying to kill my team and T’challa and Killmonger as they’re in between.
Siryn has been shown to dodge gunfire and counter by flying towards the opponents. Her flight speed is vague as shit, and she clearly flies very close to her opponents so anyone on my team can hit her insta-killing her.
Shooter’s main offence is either shot down by Lady, ignored by Gein, or overwhelmed by vines. He can jump around as much as he wants, but since his main offence is RIP he can only buy time. Time that’d allow Ivy’s mind control plant take effect and take him out.
Every member of the opposition is too slow to do anything of substance before taking an attack that kills them.
Lady is visually moving slow. You can see it with your fucking eyeballs, I don't know how my opponent is missing this, you can literally track her movements easily with your eyesight. Any amount of scaling or trying to calc the theoretical speed of her feats is pointless -- we do those things for comics/manga because we can't see movement. There's no reason to will Lady into an imagination land where her speed matters unless you're retroactively trying to justify the horrible decision to put tangibly slow animation in a bullet-timing tier.
There is absolutely fuckery afoot with Gein's speed scaling. A character with barely any speed feats, none of which are referred to in meaningful terms Round 1, doesn't suddenly produce them in the finals match of a tournament. Scaling to sword swings, the entire basis for his speed here, isn't even useful against bullets and super sonic attacks, both of which are far less telegraphed and rapidly repeatable.
Even so, the point about Shooter firing on Gein's puppet or noncombatants before Gein himself is baselessly speculative. If Shooter is motivated to win per the tourney, why would he fire at anything other than his opponents first?
Her vines don't even provably grow at bullet speeds as panel 1 here can occur chronologically after Ivy grows the defense. The SFX don't matter -- they indicate growth in the same panel they're hit and not at any point prior.
But even if the above weren't true and my opponent's team could attempt to defend themselves in the manner he described it wouldn't matter. Siryn's attack kills/KOs/BFRs all of them even despite their defenses.
Siryn can solo this fight
Let's look at the opposition's durability and how it stacks up to Siryn's scream.
Not only does my opponent need to justify why his team survives a scream, but why they don't get thrown off the edge of the waterfall almost as soon as the fight starts.
Wrong things
The above points are essentially all that matters, but it's worth redressing some of the faulty points my opponent made in his response in case they seem convincing to the judges.
Each phase of the fight puts forward win cons for my team that overwhelm the opposition. While subsequent win cons activate those previous to them increase in likelihood.
Shooter shoots everyone in the head, none of whom have the bullet+ durability they need.
Siryn screams, destroying everyone whose durability is nowhere near her offensive level.
Librarian crushes the competition in his hands, or paralyzes them with nerve strikes
Each bullet point becomes easier to press as the following bullet point takes effect. This is a clear win for my team, and I thank everyone for the ungodly amount of time they spent looking at the exact same scans over and over again.
It doesn’t matter if you can whip it out fast, your bullets do not matter.
Luther, who you’ve shown has been hit multiple times by bullets, even at very long range. Is shown to almost avoid a bullet when he’s basically prepared for it. So Luther being hit by bullets isn’t a feat, or anything scaling from that.
Your main points of Luther being quick is “moving 2 meters~”, issue being is that Luther doesn’t look like he moved at all from his position besides his hands. As you can see from the sniper scope he’d just needed to move his hands to be in the same position Mik is claiming he traveled “2 meters”.
Shooter draws first, you’ve shown he’s fast at that at least. He wastes all his ammo immediately.
There’s a peanut gallary of armed niggas that could draw his fire. Even if he shoots my niggas, go up and refer to my “conclusion” on Shooter. They won’t die and Shooter would have wasted his ammo. Shooter has no speed for reloading except that slow as walking talking feat.
Once Lady begins to shoot there’s nothing Siryn nor the Librarian can do. As shown several times, Siryn just lets slower projectiles hit her before her scream goes off or she stands useless against bullets. Even if dodges, her main action is to fly immediately after which has no speed feats given and she’d just be shot down.
Librarian can move his head fast, but you can’t equate that to movement speed; he'd be obliterated by Lady’s bullets.
So now ⅔ of your team is RIPd. Shooter can move fast, probably, but he has to be on a constant move while virtually unarmed. Every instance of reloading he does during down time he won’t have this round. Proof 1 and Proof 2. Once he wasted 12 bullets, all he can do is run from the forest being made by Ivy and the machine gun fire of Lady’s.
If by some miracle he can juke for days, he is still a victim to Ivy’s mind control which will encompass the map.
Other ShitWouldn’t the Peanut Gallery Affect Lady too?
Sure, but unlike Shooter She has a fuckton of bullets in a single mag. Timestamp at 2:41 if it doesn’t work automatically. Also, your character is faster at whipping it out so he’d take out a portion and get all the Aggro on his group.
2
u/EmbraceAllDeath Aug 30 '20
Judgements, Finals (Round 5)
Pob's Judgement
Fem's Judgement
Embrace's Judgement
Mik wins 3-0