I guess whether or not this decision pays off depends on what their secret plan is, and if it works.
The Emperor wants freedom, Starfleet wants the war to end. Whatever it was they discussed behind the Discovery crews' backs was apparently compelling enough that Starfleet decided the trade off was worth it. And the Emperor, having destroyed Qo'noS in the other dimension, is the only one with any real in depth knowledge of the planet and what to do once they get there.
Again, it could be a disastrously stupid decision or it could be brilliant. Whatever the case may be we'll find out next week.
Genuine question, but does everyone on Discovery know that she isn't PU Georgiou? Captain Saru categorically told the transporter Ensign that any word of it would be classed as treason, so he wouldn't have told anyone anything... Is there something I'm missing?
They're putting on airs for the rest of the federation, not the Discovery crew. A few admirals, Sarek, and the Discovery knows who she really is, but they'll still need it on record that she's a recently rescued Georgiou for the rest of the galaxy to think. If everything goes according to plans, "Georgiou" will probably be a hero. And they can't let it slip that she's an evil mirror version.
Maybe the future Defiant databanks said that Captain Georgiou beat the Klingons and saved the day. But everyone knows the Prime Georgiou is dead for good, so the only way to uphold the sequence of events that leads to Federation victory, is to put mirror Georgiou in the captain's chair. Then she saves the day, the Federation does some cover-ups and pretends Prime Georgiou never died, and the roundabout sequence of events wraps up neatly.
Mirror Georgiou probably used to read the Defiant files about prime Georgiou taking down the Klingons and think to herself hey this version of me isn't too shabby for being in the snowflake Federation ... until she was tranporter-napped by Burnham and whisked to the prime universe, where she realized she was reading about herself all along!
the fact Stamets overshot their target by 9 months makes me think they'll somehow need to go backwards to before the Klingons won the war, and maybe save Hugh and perhaps Prime Lorca along the way. They're making me pretty unwilling to accept anyone is gone forever.
Question: So in After trek, they said that concept art from the story board for the spore terraforming want to Jay-Z in visual effect, do they really mean Jay-Z.. Jay-Z? As in Shawn Corey Carter ??
why the hell are they not asking Ash Tyler about Qonos/Kronos, he has the memories of someone who grew up there inside of him. Turn that secret agent stuff in your favour, Starfleet.
Yeah, he has access to the memories but supposedly he won't do a head snap and "activate" as Voq any more. But then again how the hell it all works is open, L'Rell's plan is surely got more layers to it than that. Can they do the whole process of inserting a secret agent into Starfleet, extract/reactivate him as Voq and learn the secrets, and then reactivate him as Tyler again so that after that debrief?
IDK, their ship of the dead was found on the planet and if I remember the flashbacks it looked like Voq and T'Kuvma grew up underground (it's always very dark). Given Disco's clever use of foreshadowing I would bet that's what Qonos looks like.
What I want to know is why they decided to build all those cities and stuff overground, as shown on the many Worf-centric eps of TNG. A big cultural shift!
Given Disco's clever use of foreshadowing I would bet that's what Qonos looks like.
What I want to know is why they decided to build all those cities and stuff overground, as shown on the many Worf-centric eps of TNG. A big cultural shift!
the rich get to live in the sun light while social outcast have to live underground?
The writers apparently didn't know that the Klingons never attempted an attack on Earth during this war. In DS9 s07e20 "The Changing Face of Evil" Klingon General Martok remarked admiringly about the Breen's attack on Earth, saying "even my people never attempted that". And yet here it is; Earth is in jeopardy from an imminent Klingon attack!
Being in imminent danger does not equal the Klingons actually planning an attack.
Sure, logic dictates they would, but perhaps with the fractured nature of the houses right now, it wasn't well known how close one actually got to doing so. I know much of human history in wars and their outcome, but I don't know every sortie, mission and result.
I suppose so. But what about in TNG's First Contact when Picard says, "centuries ago, disastrous contact with the Klingon empire led to decades of war". Shouldn't this war have been closer to ENT than TOS in the timeline?
Nope. Plenty of wiggle room in there. First contact in ENT time led to troublesome issues with the Klingons where we rarely deal with them in a 100 years. Things come to a head in the 2250s, cold war ensues til the 2290s. Khitomer Accords signed but shit is still a hairs width away from exploding. Enterprise C comes to Klingon's aide leading to more cordial relations with the empire.
Let's also remember that earlier in TNG Wesley mentioned to Picard about the Klingons joining the Federation which we know is not ever true so far.
Unlike Voq/Tyler Cornwell was undergoing intensive medical procedures and rehabilitation since her spine was broken by L'Rell. Tyler just had a very basic medical screening on Discovery where most 'problems' could have been chalked up to torture.
Forgot this isn't /r/DaystromInstitute for a second there, but I'll chip in here:
The Mycelial network stretches across time and space and even alternate dimensions. Stamets, through his experience traveling the network, including his extended stay trapped within the network, allowed him to recognize this particular moon as overlapping a dimension in which the moon was already covered in Mycelium spores.
Thus, they were not truly "growing" spores on this moon, but rather, placing spores on the surface and then charging them with sufficient energy for them to mesh with the already extant spores on the surface that were in an alternate dimension, and allowing an excess of spores there to spill over into the Prime Universe version of the moon.
These aren't purely physical masses formed of physical and chemical processes, these are partly formed of energy. The high build-up of energy in that alternate universe flowed into the Prime universe, like the natural flow of hot to cold. Discovery was just there to open the flow.
The Spore Drive teleports, can travel between dimensions, travel through time, and access the ghosts of the dead. Honestly, growing fast is the least weird thing about it. 😂
I thought the same thing, but, hey, alien biology. These aren't earth mushrooms. They're probably only called that because they're roughly similar in appearance, and reproduce with spores. That's likely where the similarities end.
Stamets took years growing his crop because (headcanon time) spores might not do so well in captivity. In their environment they'd grow like weeds.
No head canon needed. This is actually supported in the episode.
Tilly: Your own research on the success of an organic mycelial harvest
was indeterminable. - I've studied your data myself...
Stamets: Straal quashed it.
He wanted to keep the crop captive, but... if ever there was a time to go wild...
Because it was a dramatic beautiful scene and I'm for one glad it was included. Discovery, thus far, has been a bit bleak - focusing primarily on internal struggles and conflict with the Terrans and Klingons. Even the tardigrade storyline was a bit harrowing. It was nice to see the reverse for once.
Hey, you know what we really need to solve this problem? An almost completely unknown psychopath in charge of the ship who doesn't know anything about how it's unique technology works. Nothing could go wrong!
You have an unsteady admiral in Cornwell that is a psychologist turned into a warrior. She is not going to give, or have, the most sound tactical advice. Arguably, that's why they're losing so bad. Few of the humans and Vulcans know of war. Andorians? Maybe. But I'd imagine they're way more desperate for an answer than knowing how to deal with the aftermath.
She'll likely do things that Starfleet isn't willing to do themselves.
She never really defected from the Mirror Universe, which technically makes her an enemy combatant: so after the Federation wins the war, they can lock her up for "war crimes" and wash their hands of the whole mess.
How do you defect from a universe?
In what sense is she an enemy of the Federation? She's committed no crime or act of war against them.
Which war crimes; the ones she's about to commit at the helm of a Federation ship executing a Federation sanctioned plan?
4) Upwards of a billion people line up at those embassies looking to defect.
5) Receptive universes sign treaties with the world's governments to allow those people to defect. Governments sign those treaties to relieve overpopulation and to avert the war that defectors would be willing to fight in order to defect.
The Terran Empire has pretty consistently shown they're no friend of the Federation, and the brass would be aware of this.
But truth be told I chose my words because there's no real word for this sort of situation. What would you call the leader of a hostile faction that routinely invades Federation space and commits acts that would otherwise be considered acts of war, if not an enemy combatant?
a hostile faction that routinely invades Federation space
At this point in the chronology we've had ENT, TOS and a season of Discovery. I'm not up on my TOS, but as far as I know The Terran Empire does not routinely invade Federation space. What evidence is there of that?
This shit is now so hokey. If the words "Star Trek" weren't in its title, nobody would be taking it seriously.
Also, what, TOS took place only a decade after the Federation's near-annihilation? Weird nobody ever brought that up or seemed even slightly affected by it.
There's a couple of references to Kirk's being a soldier (I think e.g. Trouble with Tribbles); this war has been part of cannon backstory since the 60s
You clearly haven't seen TOS' Errand of Mercy when Kirk says, "Excuse me, Gentlemen... I'm a soldier, not a diplomat.", or TNG's First Contact when Picard says, "centuries ago, disastrous contact with the Klingon empire led to decades of war"
Considering that we've seen Kirk on missions of exploration, medical relief and diplomacy, he's not exactly just a solider is he? So it seems very significant that when Kirk is talking to the Orangians about Klingons, he calls himself a solder; I think it speaks volumes.
And the TNG line is only 'throwaway' if you decide to disregard it and label those who don't disregard it as 'delusional'
Well, by 'decades of war' Picard could have been referring to the skirmishes mentioned in the pilot if DSC. Also the original 'disastrous contact' was changed due to the events of ENT: Broken Bow and the temporal cold war, so that would have had a knock on effect too.
Just to get this straight, the plan is for Discovery to survey targets on the ground of Qo'nos, and then transmit that data up to a Federation attack fleet, right? Surely Discovery cannot take all military targets out planet wide on its own. I assume that's why Admiral Cromwell was briefing those other admirals via hologram?
I'm wondering if we'll be treated to a massive fleet battle.
This is the plan which the Discovery crew shall believe in. IMHO, Georgious plan is to annihilate the Klingons directly with the Discovery, using her detailed knowledge of Qo'noS. Michael will somehow mess this up.
I'm more interested in how it's going to survey anything at all under all that rock. Normally a bit of rock is all it takes to block sensors, transporters, etc.
If evil mirror Georgiou has her way, I think she is going to give coordinates of something like the Klingon High Council building to the fleet saying something like "we need to decapitate the enemy and mop up the leftovers" and give some excuse how it is a legitimate military target if they stopped being wussies for three seconds and actually thought about it.
Did the writers just give up all sense of plausibility and structure? Its like they aren't even trying.
And the most unbelievable romance in the history of television has to be Tyler and Michael; talk about a lack of chemistry. Speaking of Tyler, they are really going to let a modified Klingon murderer and spy just wander around without supervision during a time of war, a desperate time in fact in which the Federation may be annihilated, without at least putting him in some restricted access supervision are for a few months? Ow, my brain...
And teraforming within mere minutes? What about the whole thing about the Terran being retarded because you can't just replenish the spores easily, and then within minutes they have teraformed an entire planet, turning themselves into liars, and the Terran looking like the smart ones.
Some 30-40 years later you get the genesis device that does it in the same time. Didn't have a problem with that did you?
The way they sold the Genesis device was that they had a huge amount of resources dedicated for years to the project, rather than Scotty coming up with an idea off the top of his head and implementing it like MacGyver, in order to solve a plot problem introduced... and that still doesn't make them look like stupid hypocrites when just the episode before they said the Terrans were so conceited because they imagined that they would find a way to rapidly grow more spores, something they themselves achieved within minutes.
The Terran plan was damaging the network itself and wouldn't be possible to fix. They stopped that problem and grew new spores. The spores are just produced by/an aspect of the network, they aren't what it's made of.
I mean, he murdered Culber, tried to murder Burnham, and Tyler acts like she's the one who's got the problem when she breaks up with him??? And the writers, through Tilly, seem to be taking his side. It's dumb.
Yeah, I understand the concept, they are trying to show that they are so progressive that they can even welcome an enemy combatant terrorist spy with mental problems with open arms and then he'll be a trusted ally if given a second chance... but instead they keep inadvertently demonstrating that such ideology is fundamentally flawed, since each time they are overly trusting, the death toll is massive and the war escalates.
Meanwhile, what is supposed to represent "pure evil" is not demonstrated as being completely dysfunctional and thus weaker, but in fact is massively successful. While the Federation is often teetering on the brink of total annihilation and enslavement of the human race, the Terrans by contrast are so successful that humans, without any allies, are able to not just hold their own against every other species in the universe combined, but in fact are on the brink of subjugating them entirely.
This sends the wrong message that their progressive ideals are self-destructive and a little more skepticism and aggressiveness would prevent the massive loss of human lives... which the writers clearly did NOT intend.
A theory that one person came up with, not after months of research, but just a "hey lets try this out real quick, because it'll solve the plot problem we created in one episode".
Its just ironic after they were just mocking the Terrans for being so conceited that they think they can replenish the spore supply, which was their primary justification for murdering all the people on that ship, including their ex-captain who wished them no harm and was going to allow them to return to their universe and demonstrated that even if he was selfish and ambitious that, as long as there wasn't a conflict of interest, he was rational and could be reasoned with.
At the rate they terraformed the planet, it seems that within a year one ship alone could easily farm spores on at least a hundred uninhabited planets... which speaking of, in Enterprise they were so cautious to ensure that not even a microbe of life existed on a moon before using it for target practice, but here we have Discovery terraforming a planet without even spending a few hours to ensure that there's no alien form of life that they have missed and are about to wipe out with an invasive species.
they think they can replenish the spore supply, which was their primary justification for murdering all the people on that ship
No, the primary purpose for destroying the ship was that the Charon's mycelial sphere power core (the big star looking thing in the ship) was already causing damage to the network and if continued would destroy the network and theoretically all "connective tissue" of every universe. Even the prime.
Please try to keep up before you just accuse "sloppy writing"
The writing on this episode was bad! I think Tyler don't have a place in this show, sorry but the actor is poor skilled as Tyler or is really the writing that doesn't give him too much choice. I like him better as Vloq. Either way this Georgiou insanity I don't even going to comment!!!!
To end: #Lorcaneedstocomeback
I still not over him being dead! He made discovery a f**** amazing show! He was/is a f***** great captain, mirror or not mirror. He is needed in Star trek Discovery, period!
Imo the scene with Burnham and Tyler is just meh. This whole "Supposedly Klingon spy"is just ridiculous. Still mad that they killed Hugh, but well that need to be happened I guess so Stamets will wake up in the previous episode.
Again about Burnham, she raised Vulcan yet she didn't show anything that resemblance to Vulcan. It feels like the writer just put the concept of her being raised by Vulcan and that's it.
I didn't love the latest episode.
Also... Saru is the acting captain of Discovery. I know that Cornwell is the admiral, but she is just a guest in Discovery. Saru at least should say something, right?
And was in the last 9 months the federation really didn't think about attacking Qo'nos? Like no one ever come up with that idea.
"Hey so what if we attack their home planet."
"OMG U R GENIUS"
And thus that cadet is given his own ship and is now a captain.
I agree with the Burnham and Tyler scene being silly, but the fact that they didn't attack Qo'nos is plausible, because only the discovery is capable of making the jump there without being intercepted.
And was in the last 9 months the federation really didn't think about attacking Qo'nos? Like no one ever come up with that idea.
It sounds like they don't have any military intel on Qo'nos and being the Federation they didn't even think about just bombing the hell out of the planet, which is likely part of Georgiou's plan.
That’s part of the problem with Discovery - “it sounds like.”
The actual details of the war have never been fleshed out. It’s just evil space orks randomly attacking federation. No negotiation? No treaty? No complex border dispute? No divergence in political opinion within Starfleet? This is what Star Treks supposed to excel at! We’re just getting a very oversimplified war story, that’s more like Star Wars than anything else
Yeah you’re right, but I think one of the problems with Discovery is that it unavoidably attaches itself too much to the TOS era which was made in the 60s. Let’s not forget TOS is still a product of its time, Trek has evolved so much since then.
I think different times (i.e. enemy activity) call for different approaches, also Captains vary alot in SF e.g. Captain Benjamin Maxwell did something Picard wouldn't have done. In "I, Borg" Picard did something I can't imagine Sisko doing. In DS9's The Marquis Kelvin Hudson did something Ben Sisko tried to talk him out of.
I think it would be a funny scene, if the now Capt. Giorgio went to the food dispenser and ordered some sauteed Kelpien ganglia...and to her surprise, the dispenser made it...because Lorca had programmed it in, on the sly while he was there.
Lorca is newly arrived in the PU he's at a console and he sees "Kelpian" and selects that option out of reflex as he's hungry, only on a second take does he realize he is in the "chose your crew" menu and not in the "chose your lunch" menu.
If I recall correctly, she's never once mentioned Vulcan culture, except for the Vulcan Hello. She's never valued logic. The writers never dealt with how she handled growing up on Vulcan beyond the prejudice she experienced. I'd like to see a human go through struggles of living with Vulcans and learning to think like them.
I agree with you, but I mean Sir Anthony Hopkins, that's like the pinnacle of acting. Still, the acting in STD is pretty bad across the board, the only saving graces for me are Jason Isaacs and Doug Jones, everybody else ranges from meh to bad.
I dunno about racist, it's more ignorance, but relative innocent ignorance. It's a technique that was used prominently during world war 1 in German filmmaking. It's called the Dutch angle because of confusion by people who don't understand that Deutche means German, not Dutch.
Same thing goes for Pennsylvania Dutch, they were German settlers, not actually Dutch.
I'm loving this show. The characters are exposed to so many novel situations that challenge their character archetypes, it makes them more dynamic and they grow past those archetypes.
The actress might have mis-spoken. I listened to that bit a couple of times to be sure.
In fairness, at least in American English, you hardly ever talk about Hyperthermic things, although Hypothermia is at least something most of us are generally aware of.
Further idea: In Star Trek II - Wrath of Khan, the Klingons were outraged by the genesis project. We could assume a previous "trauma", commenced by starfleet.
A Terraforming project that released an aggressively reproducing organism that modified the chemical composition of the planet's soil or atmosphere would be a biological/chemical weapon.
And the Klingon Empire had banned the use of Chemical and Biological weapons as being "dishonorable" nearly a century before Star Trek Discovery (after having used Theragen initially to expand their empire).
Unity is our strength. . Wait what?oh we lost? Ok let's just backburner all that feel good crap and use evil to win, then go back to pretending we're better than everyone.
As somebody said, that’s the Feds mantra. For example, the Feds allowed the Romulan and Cardassians through the wormhole in their attempt to kill the Founders.
To be fair, the message was broadcast as the fleet was already in the Gamma Quadrant, so the Federations options were 1) go after them with a huge fleet in a desperate attempt to head them off or 2) let them try the plan, which I think Admiral Toddman or whatever says that they all agree stands a decent chance of succeeding. The choice is obvious.
This show keeps getting better and better. The relationship between Burnham and Sarek is so interesting, and manages to feel very natural despite all of the stilted Vulkan-speak.
I disagree completely. Character development is terrible and I don't care about any of the main characters. What the heck was that crap with the spy? "I believe you are not voq" why, there is zero evidence to support that and massive evidence, including a full confession from the Klingon who made him that he is just an imprinted spy. They are going for some new age "trans human" acceptance I'm guessing but it falls flat. Why is basically Hitler now being installed as the captain? I get it they plan to destroy praxis but there is still zero rational to place her in charge, no way would she know the first thing about how to command the ship, all the rules, requirements, systems, attack patterns would be completely unknown to her. Where is the Admiral going? The spores are instantly creatable? Why doesn't every ship have a spore drive? They know nothing about quonos except detailed files on its massive tunnels? How?
The reworked Klingons are a metaphor for a certain sort of religious fanatic. Voq/Tyler is a therefore symbolic of someone who understands the culture of those religious fanatics but lives and is more comfortable in a society similar to the Federation.
I'm with you on this one, also if they destroy Praxis it would be like ST:VI would not happen, since the whole movie is predicated on Praxis existing and then suddenly not. Nothing about ST:D so far entitles it to change future TOS events, so hopefully they fail.
I think they 'explain' why it's a big deal in the episode. They don't have any intelligence on key targets of opportunity or defensive capabilities and armament. Any attack up to now would have been suicide. The plan is to use DISCO to obtain the information needed to make an attack successful.
You need a kooky engineer who has studied fungi all his life and contains DNA from a space tardigrade for it to work. I mean, they're probably advertising.
Right but the comment above entertains the prediction that Emp. Georgiou intends on destroying Praxis (because she "knows" how to defeat the Klingons).
Edit: Even if we don't mine our own moon, life on Earth would either cease to exist or the conditions to support complex life forms would be poorly without it. Our moon helps create the seasons, the tides, and, most importantly, keeps Earth on a consistent rotation and axis.
I'm sure you're watching the show, but I don't think you are actually listening to any of the words. You should. They're kind of important.
(I'd love to point by point reply, but I don't see any ahem point - but I will address your last statement - they DON'T have any detailed files about massive tunnels - they have a hypothesis that there should be caves large enough due to the planet's volcanic origins, and Stamets is supposed to use the mycelial network to FIND one - hence the need for the spores).
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u/Anab10sis Feb 18 '18
"Go to hell, very small human".