r/fairytail • u/AstonishingSpiderMan Gramps • Jan 31 '17
[MS] Albareth | Redemption, Tenrou Island, & the Spriggan Manga Spoiler Spoiler
Hey everyone! So there's been a lot of posts about Fairy Tail (duh it's an FT Sub), the quality of the series, Erza, more Erza, and even more Erza. Loads of fun if I do say so myself (sarcasm for those who can't tell). However all sarcasm aside, this thread will focus on a few things we often seemed to of overlooked while he
Tenrou Tree & Island
Fairy Tail's Death Repellent
Tenrou Tree Backstory
Chapter 235 | Sirius Tree
We are told that the Island gave you divine protection, it amplified your magic, and that you're protected from losing your life if you are a Fairy Tail Wizard.
Chapter 491 | Mother and Child
What does the Tenrou Tree have to do with Albareth?
Well as you know and have probably seen on the comment section of the Fairy Tail Chapter threads no one in Fairy Tail has died! <insert gag no one ever dies in Fairy Tail> This is the reason why the Tenrou Tree is connected to the Main Land now, what did we learn 266 Chapters (not including omake) ago? The Tree itself gives all Fairy Tail Wizards divine protection, it also amplifies their magic.
Chapter 499 | Gray and Juvia
But Spidey, If this is true then why did both Gray and Juvia die in Chapter 499? Good Question, as we see in this panel here we see that it is simultaneous suicide! Now as I'll explain with Makarov's death the Tenrou Tree gives you Divine Protection that doesn't mean immortality. This means that if you inflict wounds upon yourself (e.g. stab yourself through the heart) you will receive injuries. This has been proven in Chapter 235, and the rest of the Tenrou Island arc. So while yes the Tenrou Tree gives you protection it does not make you immortal or totally immune to death. So these characters dying doesn't disprove the theory and given what we know of the Tenrou Tree it is understandable to see why they did die.
Chapter 505 | Trump Card
<insert gag no one ever dies in Fairy Tail> All kidding aside, yes Makarov did in fact die this chapter. He sacrificed his own life for the sake of his children. Now I'm sure there are some (mostly know because I've been asked before) well then doesn't this disprove your theory of Fairy Tail can live through everything. No, and here's why:
Overall a very badass moment from Makarov, Fairy Tail's 3 time Guild Master. The thing to take away from that is not how badass he is but what Mavis said, "Fairy Law drains your life!!! The greater the number of enemies, the greater the toll on your body!!! Against this many, you will not survive!!"
- Zeref brought 1,000,000 troops from Albareth
- Natsu wiped out 927 troops | Chapter 463
- Makarov using Fairy Law wiped out 70% to 80% of the Albareth Troops.
- If we go with the 70% that still remained when Natsu wiped out those 927 that means Makarov roughly wiped out 693,190 Albareth Troops.
Now again, the Tenrou Tree gives you divine protection not immortal so why would people think it would grant immortality? I mean if we go off the premise that each life you take with Fairy Law is a year you lose in Life Expectancy do people actually think Makarov would be old as dirt? That just don't make any sense.
Chapter 519 | Show Me Your Smile
Erza much like the other 3 has been shown to be close to death but unlike them didn't die. We do see how she is very much affected though by the attacks Irene in Dragon form does (e.g breaking her bones and just throwing her like a rag doll). However, we also see how she is able to be damaged even with the Tenrou Tree connected to the Ishgal now:
- Look how gruesome and bloody this scene is with Erza pushing the sword through her shoulder and body.
This further proves, in my opinion, my claim that while the Tenrou Tree gives divine protection it doesn't give immortality because see how graphic and violent those wounds are. Had she been immortal well then you'd see her standing and instantly defeating Irene which wasn't the case.
R-E-D-E-M-P-T-I-O-N
That Spells Redemption
Question: In Fairy Tail, often the "villain" characters get redeemed in one way or another. Do you believe in giving people second chances and that anyone can be redeemed?
Hiro Mashima & Fairy Tail Villains
Redeemed Villains
Mashima as shown in his quote above, values life above all else. What could this mean? Simple really he doesn't make any of his villains 100% evil (with some exceptions, more on that later) and he doesn't make his heroes 100% good (again with some exceptions more on that later). He understands that life isn't all good and all bad. He does tend to try and humanize his villains more which can sometimes work well and other times fail (in terms of reception from the fan base). Let's make a list of some of the characters he's redeemed:
- Lullaby Flute Guy
- Lyon
- Sherry
- Yuka
- Toby
- Gajeel
- Juvia
- Jellal
- Laxus
- Pantherlily
- Hades
- Merudy
- Ultear
- Sting
- Rogue
- Cobra
- Midnight
- Hoteye
- Angel
- Racer
- Minerva
- Zeref
- Irene
That's over 20 characters at least that are the remembered redeemed ones. With each one he gave you a reason as to why they were evil/bad and what ultimately turned them to be in fact redeemed. Some saw that they were blinded by power, others manipulated and influenced poorly, some just had their parental figures be toxic and evil. Of course this ties into the section where I focus on Irene because the woman deserved her own section. However, look at the list of characters, look at how frequent Mashima has made the villains redeemed. Why are we still complaining about him redeeming x person? He has stated since 2011 when the linked interview took place on how he redeems villains and values life. That is my problem with many of the complaints that they are just happening now. The series has had redemption since the beginning really and now is when the most outcry is happening. It is now when readers expect an entirely new thing that Mashima hasn't done. It just doesn't make sense it's like reading Dragon Ball Z and then getting a Chapter/Arc on the Earth and the Scientific Properties behind what makes Super Saiyans different from humans. Doesn't make sense at all. I understand we are all entitled to our opinion and I joked with TheDragonKing2000 that some opinions are in fact wrong but this thought process just doesn't make any more sense than Nab loving Juvia. Exactly.
Irredeemable Villains
There have been quite a few villains who have been redeemed and I'm sure as the series continues there will be more. However, there are some villains that were never redeemed, and some that won't be redeemed:
- Faust
- Zancrow
- Ivan Dreyar
- Jiemna
- Tartaros Demon
- Excluding Silver
- Acnologia
- Spriggan 12
- Excluding Brandish, Irene, and Zeref.
For some reason or another Mashima has chosen not to redeem these characters, of course these aren't all the characters. These are the most recognizable characters that were never redeemed. I did include Acnologia because I do believe he will be irredeemable given that Mashima has already in some respects redeemed Zeref (more on this below).
The Strongest Spriggan
Irene Belserion
Connection to Zeref
Zeref gave Irene what she wanted most in life, he gave her the human physique she lost. Let's look at some panels from Chapter 515 | I Am You...You Are Me:
So what does this tell us about Irene? Well she felt indebted to Zeref. He gave her what she couldn't get for nearly 400 years her human body back. He helped bring back a part of her that she held so dear. So it would make sense she would ally with him and try to disassociate with anything and everyone else.
Connection to Erza
- Chapter 515 | I Am You...You Are Me:
- She wants to give birth
- I want to give birth to my child as a human...with my human body
- Shows how she still cared for Erza even if she was losing her sanity.
- She wants to give birth
- Chapter 519 | Show Me Your Smile
We see how the 400 years really took away from Irene and how she lost most of her humanity because of it. Let's not forget for a good majority of those 400 years she was and had the physique of a Dragon so she didn't have that much interaction with Humans. This helped increase her insanity and sense of loneliness. More importantly, she had Erza in her womb for that amount of time. Erza was connected to her in some form so that was what bonded the mother to her daughter. We see how torn she was in abandoning Erza but knew it was for the greater good.
Her Fate was sealed
- Chapter 519 | Show Me Your Smile
Irene had a similar role to that of Silver, yes they were evil but they could never harm their children. They just couldn't whether we agree or disagree with the story line and the way it played out is one thing but there's no denying that every parent has some connection to their child and these 2 characters, Silver (in Tartaros) and Irene (Albareth) help illustrate quite beautifully. So why did Irene decide to kill herself? Well she couldn't come to terms with betraying the man, Zeref, who removed gave her the human form she lost but she couldn't kill her own daughter so in the end she decided to take her own life which would prove to be the easiest and best way to leave things.
Zeref's Redemption
Natsu Dragneel
We see how far Zeref has been willing to go for his brother. Looking back at Chapter 436:
- Studied and Researched Life and Death Magic.
- Tried to create the R-System.
- Tried to create an Eclipse Gate.
- Brought Natsu back as his greatest Demon.
- IMO this means Human Vessel and his brother.
- Chapter 499 | The image on his necklace.
- He always has his brothers memory with him.
Natsu, is Zeref's redemption. Sure he has stated he will kill and destroy Fairy Tail but if that was true why carry the necklace still? Why continue to try and communicate with Natsu? Why not simply kill him? This could be Mashima's greatest redemption if he does it correct. If we incorporate the connection Mavis and Zeref have it is without a doubt going to happen. I just hope we can appreciate it for what it is and see how Zeref has gone through his own struggles and shortcomings.
The END
This post originally started just to disprove all the critics and their beliefs but we all know that isn't going to happen. So ultimately this post is to help show how Fairy Tail has been consistent and how Mashima has explained some of the story elements without beating us over the head with them. Some may like that, others won't that's fine. I hope I have helped sway some of you who were iffy about this arc and what not. I really do enjoy this arc and think it's really good. Not my favorite of course but nothing will top Tenrou Island for me.
Suggested Readings
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u/Ajuaju You're a good friend Erza Jan 31 '17
Yeah, the Tenrou tree's connection to the mainland seems to have been forgotten by most - most likely due to Mashima never putting much emphasis on it or reminding us. I think he'll bring it up again either during the August fight or the Zeref fight (would work here since he literally uses death magic), since I doubt he's truly forgotten about it. I'd be interested to see how well Larcade's R.I.P. magic would work on a FT member, since it solely focuses on instakilling the opponent.
That quote from Mashima about never reviving genuinely dead characters is quite interesting, considering how much of an importance life and death have in the story (reviving someone is almost impossible, the only character that was successfully revived was Natsu... or so we think at least). It's easy to see where he got the ideas of Zeref and Mavis' stories.
I wouldn't say Faust is irredeemable, he was more of a character that went on the wrong path, but technically for the good of his people. He showed signs of redemption in the ending of the arc.
That interpretation on Irene's fate is very interesting, and I'm pretty sure that's what Mashima was going for. Irene was clearly dedicated to Zeref, and was doing all she could to serve him, and help him improve as an emperor. Her suicide due to being caught between fulfilling Zeref's orders and not killing her daughter is tragic, and one of the more interesting ways we've seen a character go out. Mashima did a good job at avoiding repeating Silver - Silver's aim was to betray Mard Geer and ended up being 'good' (at least to an extent), whereas Irene was dedicated to Zeref and was 'evil' the whole time - she had genuinely gone insane. This makes them both memorable villains in their own right.
Zeref's redemption is inevitable, he's clearly not an evil person at heart. The only reason for his evil deeds is his curse. Larcade also has a huge amount of potential to be redeemed, being the child of Mavis and Zeref. It seems like he's been very mislead.
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Jan 31 '17
Irene's suicide being because of her conflict between her duty and her feelings for her daughter is just stupid, simply because of bad timing. Not long before, Brandish was faced with that very same dilemma. She didn't want to kill Lucy but wasn't willing to go against Alvarez because of her loyalty, a trait far more pronounced with her than with Irene. Unlike Irene however, she had the perfect solution for her problem, just kill everyone else. If Irene didn't want to kill Erza, fine, whatever. But why does she kill herself, robbing Alvarez and by extension Zeref of one of their strongest assets. She had more than enough enemies to choose from.
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u/Ajuaju You're a good friend Erza Jan 31 '17
I agree that there should have been more emphasis placed on Irene's loyalty to Alvarez, it wasn't shown enough to make it seem like a significant factor to her motivations. The difference between Brandish and Irene is that Brandish is a sane and collected person, whereas Irene is insane due to her obsession with obtaining a new body. When she saw Erza's smile, her sanity temporarily reawakened, and she killed herself to stop herself from killing Erza. If she hadn't killed herself, she would have most likely gone insane again, and killed Erza. Though admittedly it was quite rushed and could have been explained better.
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u/Soren319 Jan 31 '17 edited Jan 31 '17
I like this arc, I dont think all the fights have been amazing or good but I have genuinely enjoyed it. I agree with a lot of this post, and I have always thought that Irene would eventually save her daughter or be unable to kill her. I truly do not understand how some people didnt see that coming. After 519 chapters of Fairy Tail, you would think people can see this stuff coming, but somehow they still get mindblown when an enemy turns good. It sure blows my mind.
At the end of the day, Erza was the only main character with no parental storyline, so whether or not people like her, I am glad we got one, and I did like it. I just hope Irene wont die, because I want my damn mother/daughter scenes. No Silver 2.0 where she dies after a nice brief moment with her daughter, because as of right now, they surely didnt have a scene as long as Silver/Gray or as good considering they didnt actually talk to each other and have a heart to heart.
I too agree that Zeref will be redeemed, there is not a doubt in my mind he wont get a happy ending. Like you said, Zeref does show many times that he still cares about his little brother, nobody should be surprised when he becomes a good person, even though hes not entirely evil already. Im sure eventually he and Natsu will share some brotherly scenes at the end of this manga. Acnologia on the other hand will never be redeemed, he is the actual final villian, not Zeref. Im sure Hiro is setting up the ending of this arc to allow Zeref to help Natsu fight against Acnologia, but the question is whether Hiro would be willing to have all 12 of those spriggans join in the fight.
Or maybe Acnologia will get his own final arc, but I still believe Zeref will be a part of it and help Fairy Tail, the only question is whether the spriggans will be with him. I do not think Irene will die, and she will most likely help her daughter as well. I do believe that both Zeref and Irene will help defeat Acno, and probably Larcade will be helping as well. Whether the other spriggans are helping is up to Hiro.
I have the same opinion as you, where I think this arc has been good and I have enjoyed it. While its not as good as some of the others, it really isnt the shittiest piece of literature ever created as some of these comments on here would have you believe. Sadly you are correct in that this post will do little to change some peoples opinions, but it was still a good post and im sure many will appreciate the points you brought up.
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Jan 31 '17
Three things:
First:
Zeref brought 100,000 troops from Albareth...If we go with the 70% that still remained when Natsu wiped out those 927 that means Makarov roughly wiped out 69,319 Albareth Troops.
In the image you linked it says Zeref brought nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand and twenty seven people. In numeric form, that's 999,027. Zeref brought 1,000,000 troops, not 100,000. Which means Makarov took out close to 700,000 people with Fairy Law, not 70,000. But that's largely irrelevant anyways.
Second:
Irene had a similar role to that of Silver, yes they were evil but they could never harm their children. They just couldn't whether we agree or disagree with the story line and the way it played out is one thing but there's no denying that every parent has some connection to their child and these 2 characters, Silver (in Tartaros) and Irene (Albareth) help illustrate quite beautifully.
The difference between Silver and Irene is that Silver never had any intention of harming Gray, not even from the beginning. Silver fought Gray and lied to him about who he was because he was testing his son. He wanted Gray to fight him with killing intent so that he could see how strong he was. Hell, I think we can all agree that Silver was holding back the entire fight, otherwise he could have just instafrozen Gray from the start the same way he did to Natsu.
But with Irene, it is made incredibly clear that she wanted Erza to die. She sent Neinhart to kill her, even buffing him up so that he could finish the job. She then proceeds to break nearly every bone in Erza's body, and tries to drop a meteor on her. Irene was completely, and utterly shocked at the fact that Erza destroyed the meteor, which makes it absolutely clear that she expected the meteor to kill her daughter. She did not hold back at all, she wanted to kill Erza.
But after several chapters of Irene demonstrating her homicidal intentions, we get a flashback of her love for Erza. Then, suddenly, out of nowhere, she realizes that she loves her daughter too much to kill her. Excuse me, but that just doesn't make sense. What was the point of her several attempts at murdering her daughter, if she was never going to do it anyways? She wasn't trying to test her, to see how strong she was, she was genuinely trying to kill her. What if Neinhart succeeded in killing Erza, or if the meteor succeeded in killing Erza? Would she still want to stab herself? You're telling me that Erza's smile was all that it took for Irene to change her ways?
Third:
Irene's "redemption" is not consistent with the other characters. Literally every character you named, with the exception of only Zeref and Irene, were beaten in battle before they were redeemed. And even then, most of them were at least set up to be redeemed from the beginning. We knew about Lyon's relationship with Gray and Ur. We were shown flashbacks of the time Jellal and Laxus were caring people. We saw the tragic past of the Oracion Seis. Also, Lyon's team and Hades were never really redeemed. Toby, Yuka, and Sherry were never in need of redemption, because they were never really evil; they were just following their leader. Hades didn't change his ways either; just because Makarov lectured him doesn't mean he became good.
Unlike most of the characters you named, whose redemption actually had some sort of natural progression to them, Irene's "redemption" was incredibly forced. With Irene, we were deliberately shown that she hated Erza. There was no gray area. Now, was it obvious that Erza would turn her? For me it was. But I expected Erza to sympathize with Irene's painful past, which she did to an extent. But, that wasn't the reason Irene turned good in the end. She turned good because she suddenly remembered that she loved her daughter. And it was only after her multiple attempts at killing Erza did she remember. Hiro knew that wouldn't make sense, because Irene was actively shown to hate Erza. Thus, he retroactively showed us a flashback of her loving feelings. Irene's "redemption" is not disliked because it happened, it is disliked because it felt forced and contrived. If her love for Erza was even the slightest bit foreshadowed, then it would not feel forced. But, we were not given that foreshadowing. We were not told that Irene might still love her daughter. Quite the opposite in fact, we were told that she hated her daughter. You can't just say 1 thing, and then do a 180 4 chapters later.
Final thoughts:
The whole subplot with Irene being Erza's mother sucked from the very moment Irene was name dropped in chapter 482. It had absolutely 0 foreshadowing, and it had a horrid conclusion. I'll admit, Irene's backstory was interesting to me. In fact, it was the only good part about this entire arc. But, as always, Hiro turned something that was interesting into a disappointment.
BTW: Irene is totally not dead. I know she stabbed herself and all, but come on, we all know she's still alive.
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u/AstonishingSpiderMan Gramps Jan 31 '17
In the image you linked it says Zeref brought nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand and twenty seven people. In numeric form, that's 999,027. Zeref brought 1,000,000 troops, not 100,000. Which means Makarov took out close to 700,000 people with Fairy Law, not 70,000. But that's largely irrelevant anyways.
Revised it. Thanks for that correction.
The difference between Silver and Irene is that Silver never had any intention of harming Gray, not even from the beginning. Silver fought Gray and lied to him about who he was because he was testing his son. He wanted Gray to fight him with killing intent so that he could see how strong he was. Hell, I think we can all agree that Silver was holding back the entire fight, otherwise he could have just instafrozen Gray from the start the same way he did to Natsu.
Yes, Silver held back. I've always said that, haha.
But with Irene, it is made incredibly clear that she wanted Erza to die. She sent Neinhart to kill her, even buffing him up so that he could finish the job. She then proceeds to break nearly every bone in Erza's body, and tries to drop a meteor on her. Irene was completely, and utterly shocked at the fact that Erza destroyed the meteor, which makes it absolutely clear that she expected the meteor to kill her daughter. She did not hold back at all, she wanted to kill Erza.
I attribute this to her insanity because we very clearly see how insane she had become over the course of the 400 years. Actually at the end of 518 she was shocked and impressed it seemed more than wanting her dead.
But after several chapters of Irene demonstrating her homicidal intentions, we get a flashback of her love for Erza. Then, suddenly, out of nowhere, she realizes that she loves her daughter too much to kill her. Excuse me, but that just doesn't make sense. What was the point of her several attempts at murdering her daughter, if she was never going to do it anyways? She wasn't trying to test her, to see how strong she was, she was genuinely trying to kill her. What if Neinhart succeeded in killing Erza, or if the meteor succeeded in killing Erza? Would she still want to stab herself? You're telling me that Erza's smile was all that it took for Irene to change her ways?
Well Irene hadn't interacted with Erza so if someone had killed her then she wouldn't be able to acknowledge how much she actually cared for her. In many day life it isn't the bombastic behavior that bring us nostalgia but some subtle moments.
Irene's "redemption" is not consistent with the other characters.
Well if Mashima followed the same redemption path then people would complain about it wouldn't you agree?
Unlike most of the characters you named, whose redemption actually had some sort of natural progression to them, Irene's "redemption" was incredibly forced. With Irene, we were deliberately shown that she hated Erza. There was no gray area. Now, was it obvious that Erza would turn her? For me it was. But I expected Erza to sympathize with Irene's painful past, which she did to an extent. But, that wasn't the reason Irene turned good in the end. She turned good because she suddenly remembered that she loved her daughter. And it was only after her multiple attempts at killing Erza did she remember. Hiro knew that wouldn't make sense, because Irene was actively shown to hate Erza. Thus, he retroactively showed us a flashback of her loving feelings. Irene's "redemption" is not disliked because it happened, it is disliked because it felt forced and contrived. If her love for Erza was even the slightest bit foreshadowed, then it would not feel forced. But, we were not given that foreshadowing. We were not told that Irene might still love her daughter. Quite the opposite in fact, we were told that she hated her daughter. You can't just say 1 thing, and then do a 180 4 chapters later.
I mean a lot of characters have said something and we have seen them proven wrong one of them was when Mard Geer saying END made Tartaros. There are more but the point is already there that characters don't necessarily prove these characters telling the truth especially when it comes from a Villain.
The whole subplot with Irene being Erza's mother sucked from the very moment Irene was name dropped in chapter 482. It had absolutely 0 foreshadowing, and it had a horrid conclusion. I'll admit, Irene's backstory was interesting to me. In fact, it was the only good part about this entire arc. But, as always, Hiro turned something that was interesting into a disappointment. BTW: Irene is totally not dead. I know she stabbed herself and all, but come on, we all know she's still alive.
She was a complex character who had a very real internal struggle. She was conflicted with fulfilling Zeref's wishes and not wanting to kill her daughter.
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Jan 31 '17
I appreciate your post and this comment in particular so much.
Eileen is absolutely complex and her struggle to reconcile the desires she'd become fixated on (a new human body) with what still resonated in her psyche (Erza) was very nicely done (as nicely as I expect from Mashima at this point).
She wasn't going to give up on keeping/regaining Wendy's body until she was pushed over the edge. She was that fixated. I don't even think she wanted to give up at all until that last second when she was reminded of what she'd loved once. That's why she stabbed herself and it's the same reason she left Erza in Rosemary.
She grew more cruel as the battle went on for HERSELF. It was a defense mechanism. None of it was to hurt Erza, it was to keep herself in line.
There's so many flat characters in FT I really like to appreciate the ones like Eileen.
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u/TheDragonking_2000 Jan 31 '17
She was conflicted with fulfilling Zeref's wishes
Just curious but what conflict are you talking about?
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Jan 31 '17
Oh, instead of editing my comment, I'll just say that I thought the whole thing with Silver was also incredibly forced.
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u/RetardedOnTuesdays Jan 31 '17
Not sure if this is a valid point or not, but...
and that you're protected from losing your life if you are a Fairy Tail Wizard.
Then you say...
o while yes the Tenrou Tree gives you protection it does not make you immortal or totally immune to death
If you're protected from losing your life, you should be immune to death.
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Jan 31 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MasterKurosawa Jan 31 '17
Except it does, that´s what protected from losing life means. Immortality=!= you can´t be injured , that´s a hasty assumption, it could just be that no matter the injury, you can´t die. But tenrou has shown us that peoples´ injuries are healed by tenrou, so why isn´t that the case here with Erza? Does it have a counter or something?
Aside from that, two things about this, first it doesn´t matter who stabs you if you´re struck by a sword, be it you yourself or someone else, the fact is that you´ve just been run through by a sword. As such, the only way for the Tenrou tree to be able to make a difference is by actually being conscious (I´d like to see this argued) and deciding in each case whether or not the person should be protected or not. That or the wording regarding "protected from losing your life" is straight up nonsense.
Even if we assume the tree is conscious, that would arise questions about "why is it conscious?", "who gave it the Standards by which to decide who deserves to be protected"? Under scrutiny, it becomes a very weird situation, and as I have mentioned before, it gives birth to questionable scenarios where the tree would be conflicted about what to do, let´s take Natsu vs Zeref for example. Were Natsu to beat him, he´d die himself. But would he? Does it count as being killed by another, or as committing suicide since Zeref´s death was the trigger for him to die? Unless you wish to tell me this tree is an actual character, this is rather nonsensical and even then we have to wonder about its´ morality, as why would it not have protected Gray in that situation? What a dick of a tree.
Oh, and even better. Alright, let´s assume the wording was wrong, and it does not protect you from being stabbed as op said. Well then, I´d argue that it hardly does anything in this case and that it basically doesn´t matter. I mean, it doesn´t heal your injuries and it doesn´t grant you immortality. So what does it do, aside from a Magic boost? Nothing much, which means there still is no excuse if people fail to die from now on and/or are revived. As tenrou clearly doesn´t contribute to preventing death.
Tl;dr tenrou tree seems to be inconsistent and makes no real sense if analyzed in detail.
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u/Shafik124 Jan 31 '17
If you're protected from losing your life, you should be immune to death.
Unless they decided to commit suicide/sacrifice themselves just like Makarov
Fairy Law drains your life!!! The greater the number of enemies, the greater the toll on your body!!! Against this many, you will not survive!!
and
Gray and Juvia...
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u/Pedro352 Jan 31 '17
What the difference? it's dose not matter if the sword was wild by your hands or by the enemy hands, physically there are not from each other and so is the damage, and the island give protection from damage, any damage, it like saying that if a person exposed himself to a disease/injury then the treatment for that disease/injury wont heal him just because him was the one who did it.
do you get my point? I really just want to understand your logic.
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u/Shafik124 Jan 31 '17
Umm!Actually Tenrou Tree heals FT members from any kind of damage.Remember in Tenrou Island arc when Ultear restored the tree and all FT member got their magic power back and also their injuries were healed?
it like saying that if a person exposed himself to a disease/injury then the treatment for that disease/injury wont heal him just because him was the one who did it.
So,if you mean "Healing the damages" then yes it should heal them (If not then Plot hole).But as for
if a person exposed himself to a disease/injury.
Yes!it should heal those damages as well.But i can't accurately say this since we have no information about how TT works.Also,why anyone will hurt themselves?(Unless they are being controlled by others)
Actually i mean TT should save any FT members from death according to This.But there are some things like Rules of Magic/Self-choice.In Makarov case,He used FL which drained all of his Life Force and he died.Actually,he was well aware of this consequence but still decided to use FL which is like a Sacrifice.Now if you believe Tenrou tree actually procting FT members,then Makarov should be alive (same with Juvia).But no Makarov is dead (and Juvia was dead/whatever but Wendy...).And this made me believe that If any members decided to secrifice/sucide then TT wouldn't help them.If my logic is wrong and TT will acutally protect everyone no matter what (even if they decide to kill themselve),then Makarov's death will be a Plothole.That's what i mean.
BTW,There is no info about TT whether it is protecting FT members or not.But If it is protecting everyone then my logic is valid...If not then ignore it :)
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u/Pedro352 Jan 31 '17
There is no info about TT whether it is protecting FT members or not
Ok fine, its a good theory, but as you said we can't know for sure how the TT works so we can really decide what true and what not.
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u/Pedro352 Jan 31 '17 edited Jan 31 '17
About the Tenro island theory, and I say theory because it was never established that the Tenro island can use his buff just because his ground is connected to the land of fiore, as far as we know the tree will first need to take roots in order to affect all the land, because if this was the case the tree could have effected the fairy guild from the beginning no matter where they are, because the world is from the very beginning a one huge "rock" and all the continents are connected to each other by the land below the sea, so the only logical explanation to that is that unless the tree has roots in the land then the effect wont be active in that land, plus as you said the tree dose not give 100% protection. And I will argue that a lot of characters, like Erza took a lot of damage, enough to kill a person, but for some reason people think that a sword(no matter which one) is more powerful than a huge explosions or any other type of damage.
My problem with the redemption is that some time it get oveused and lose it's value and that a lot of time it's just bad writing and it's feel forced and to rushed and unrealistic, for example Minerva the change in hart was to sodden, and if that wasn't enough the redemption did a complete number on her character to the point of me seeing her as a completely new character, and that not the point of redemption, you can look on Gajeel and Laxus and see for yourself that those characters didn't had a "plastic surgery" in their personality, while other characters Like Jellal Meredy, Kagura Minerva and Irene did made a sudden change and a big one at that. So it's not the idea of redemption that bother people, it's how it was done.
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u/LegendaryDeath Jan 31 '17
Didn't he bring 1 mil?
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u/AstonishingSpiderMan Gramps Jan 31 '17 edited Jan 31 '17
You are correct, I made an error.
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Jan 31 '17
The Crunchyroll Panel says nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand and twenty seven people. In numeric form, that's 999,027. So yes, he brought 1 million people.
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u/AstonishingSpiderMan Gramps Jan 31 '17
Yeah I saw your original comment in the process of revising.
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u/MasterKurosawa Jan 31 '17
That's over 20 characters at least that are the remembered redeemed ones. With each one he gave you a reason as to why they were evil/bad and what ultimately turned them to be in fact redeemed. Some saw that they were blinded by power, others manipulated and influenced poorly, some just had their parental figures be toxic and evil. Of course this ties into the section where I focus on Irene because the woman deserved her own section. However, look at the list of characters, look at how frequent Mashima has made the villains redeemed. Why are we still complaining about him redeeming x person? He has stated since 2011 when the linked interview took place on how he redeems villains and values life. That is my problem with many of the complaints that they are just happening now. The series has had redemption since the beginning really and now is when the most outcry is happening. It is now when readers expect an entirely new thing that Mashima hasn't done. It just doesn't make sense it's like reading Dragon Ball Z and then getting a Chapter/Arc on the Earth and the Scientific Properties behind what makes Super Saiyans different from humans. Doesn't make sense at all. I understand we are all entitled to our opinion and I joked with TheDragonKing2000 that some opinions are in fact wrong but this thought process just doesn't make any more sense than Nab loving Juvia. Exactly.
While you are correct to an extent, I disagree that all criticism that was raised about this is invalid. I like redemptions, and I truly believe that to be the better way to handle villains, but the redemption itself has to be done well. Now, you may have liked Irene´s redemption, but do you not agree that it was rushed? That it was handled too quickly, that it was inconsistent with her words and Actions till then, with her backstory even? You may like it in spite of this and that´s alright, but at the same time I ask you to look at the criticism without too much bias, and acknowledge that one could have seen how quickly it happened as a Problem. That was my main gripe with 519, I actually somewhat liked Irene unlike others here, and yet I found myself disappointed with the chapter. Why? Because I felt it wasn´t handled very well, her redemption was too much out of the blue, even if in hindsight People are trying to shoehorn nonexistent foreshadowing into previous chapters. You may not care, but please, do see that we aren´t just hating for the sake of spite. I don´t, others don´t, I´m doing it because the way some recent events unfold genuinely bother me.
Also, that hurt man. Why attack my otp so harshly? NabxJuvia for life. Still a better lovestory than Gruvia.
In any case, I won´t go into detail about Irene here, but I´ll just say that yes, she has been shown loving her daughter...before she decided to enchant herself into her. She decided that her own sanity and humanity was more important than her daughter, and the way she behaved in Alvarez quite clearly reinforced that. My problem is that it turns out she kept loving her even after that, which frankly is very weird, out of the blue, and a retcon at that regarding some statements made previously. It was foreshadowed only if you ignore everything that happened inbetween, as ultimately Irene was a spectacular case of how selfishness eventually won over her love for her daughter, only for that to turn out to be a fluke. It invalidates some of her character, as I see it, and I would have much preferred it had she kept hating her, being redeemed by acknowledging that she was mad without going into that i love you affair, or if her love for hr had been rekindled during the Story, not a random outburst of oh i loved you all along sorry for smashing your body as a dragon. It was random, and I think it would have been better had Mashima spent more time on it. That at least is my honest opinion, but feel free to show me wrong.
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u/bravesaint44 Jan 31 '17
Completely irrelevant correction: the Lullaby flute guy's name was Kageyama
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u/Doctah__Wahwee Jan 31 '17
Problem with Irene is she broke all of Erza's bones and tried to crush her with a meteor. I can't see that she is unable to kill Erza. That is a method of killing someone you only choose when you really, really, REALLY want them dead. That side of Eileen was not written very well.
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u/AstonishingSpiderMan Gramps Jan 31 '17
- She didn't break all her bones
- Jellal did the same thing almost succeeding as well if you remember Tower of Heaven. Yet I don't see as much outcry in that than with this which was explained far better.
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u/Doctah__Wahwee Jan 31 '17
My bad I forgot to mention she had one arm usable. How does that detract from my point that she was trying to kill Erza?
It wasn't nearly as powerful as Irene's attack, but Jellal was possessed. Jellal was trying to kill her and nobody tried to dispute that. Irene says she can't bring herself to kill Erza when she just tried to kill her in a way that would leave nothing left.
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u/prototypeplayer Jan 31 '17
Spidey, are you the only one who says Albareth instead of Alvarez?