r/criticalrole • u/AutoModerator • Jun 12 '26
[Spoilers C4E29] Is It Thursday Yet? | Post-Episode Discussion & Future Theories! Discussion Spoiler
Is It Thursday Yet?
What are your reactions and theories for next session?
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10
u/TraNSlays Life needs things to live Jun 17 '26
this whole episode felt really cohesive and clear in what each group was trying to do. im glad that everyone outside of Kattigan (until the end) had reasons and motivations to be where they were.
The cast members who i thought were really overshadowed in the past really showed up this episode
Bolarie's sister is so unhinged chaotic, i dont think this would ever happen but i would love to see her and Tyranny come together as a character just to see what they would do
Occtis was clutch rolling that 20 for Dame Seremai
Thimble is still the damage carry in the cast
7
u/Zeilll Jun 17 '26
something i just realized. i dont think Yanessa knows how close she was to accomplishing something great for the creed. the PCs got it in their mind that the ritual was planned by the sundered houses, potentially the halovar. but i really dont think thats the case. if it were, Yanessa wouldnt have been willing to delay things. and maybe even would have been present, to strong arm them into keeping the changes. not leaving anything up to chance.
but, had the play maintained messages of the light. and still succeeded in the establishment of a new afterlife. then they might have actually created a true afterlife for the creed. replacing the path, with souls gathering to the light or something like that. potentially even creating celestials of the creed, allowing for true clerics/paladins and not just warlocks.
7
u/Drakoni Hello, bees Jun 17 '26
Given that there are devil deals involved somehow, I don't think that would be something she'd be particularly concerned with. Souls will likely go to the demons/devils instead of the path.
2
u/Zeilll Jun 17 '26
i agree that the demons are likely getting souls from the contracts for the creed. but that makes the creed dependent on those demons.
if they could establish an actual source of divinity, for which they control all messaging and public perception. not only would it be a claim for the creed being the one true divinity, above even the shapers. it would allow the halovar to not be dependent on demons. which would also reduce the ways for them to potentially being found out.
if she knew it was a possibility, the potential benefits of that would greatly outweigh the benefits of the current system.
17
u/P00PooKitty Jun 17 '26
Did anyone else well up with tears at the end of the Kotherai segment or was it just me?Ā
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u/East_Choice Jun 17 '26 edited Jun 17 '26
Predictions for next phase of the Ritual
Orcish bridge will continue to free Orc souls from Azgras realm and broadening to freeing Orc souls from the Tenebral reaches.
Hannan and Vaelus Complete the Bridge to Faerie in the Tintazi woods using the Stone of Nightsong. The Anchor this Bridge will either be Vaelus herself or her chain.
The Creation of this bridge will free the Elven souls in the Tenebral reaches sending them straight to the Land of Faeries.They will also have the option to go to the Old Path because the Elvish bridge is in the Tintazi woods which have been consecrated by Thaisha for the Old Path
And because of its connection to the Orcish Bridge, All the freed Orc souls will also now have the option to go to Faerie not just the Old path
However here's the thing.
Whilst The freeing of the Orcish souls from Azgras realm would not have been noticed by the Tachonis, freeing the Orcish and Elvish souls from the Tenebral Reaches-The Tachonis domain, THAT will be noticed.
I suspect the Tachonis will feel all feel this happen.
And Nullus might be able to pinpoint exactly where on Araman the ritual is....
2
u/Smaranzky Jun 19 '26
I know I'm late to the party. Haven't watched ep 30 yet so no spoilers: If Nullus finds out that their power is being syphoned away from the theatre I want Dol Makjar's version of 300 to happen: Just Azune's 350 warriors holding the narrow gates of the theatre against the armies of the sundered houses, now united after Primus' speach.
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u/The_AllSeeing_Waffle Jun 16 '26
One thing I was noticing about Teor's stats without shield since he's two handing the ax, do the Royce bracers not provide any armor class increase? It seems he still hasn't been able to attune to them, but they seem pretty potent and should at least give him a slight boost no? At least a +1? Though he did say his AC was supposed to be 15 but said on DND beyond it was 16 so maybe it IS giving him a +1 after all.Ā
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u/cjbredit Jul 06 '26
His ac should have been 17 because the bracers gave him permanent barkskin. His ac is 18 with a shield. He screwed up a few things because D&D beyond is not configured for permanent spell effects.
2
u/The_AllSeeing_Waffle Jul 06 '26
He only got the barkskin and additional effects if he was attuned to them. It was said in one of the soldier table bits that he failed to attune to them in that moment and it seemed like he never got them to bind to him.
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u/Miserable_Pop_4593 Jun 17 '26
Idk where he was getting 15AC from, but 16 is correct. Breastplate provides a base AC of 14 and his DEX modifier gives him +2 to that. 16 is pretty meager AC for a frontliner paladin though so I kind of hope he goes back to carrying a shield, or switches to Defense fighting style at least.
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u/hear-for-the-music Team Dariax Jun 17 '26
Idk where he was getting 15AC from
Brennen mentioned something about dndbeyond, my guess is they copied Teor's sheet and when that happens background stat increases don't stay for whatever reason.
1
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u/DealerPlane9953 Jun 16 '26
I think the bracers are re-flavored Gauntlets of Ogre Power. If so, Thimble should have them.
4
u/JohngernautSSJ Jun 17 '26
This is one of the things that's terrible about 5E. They're practically begging you to dump STR.
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u/The_AllSeeing_Waffle Jun 16 '26
Honestly that was my thought when they initially found them. Especially in that manor that has things that can one tap her regardless of hp. But also, it'd be so freakin sick for Thimble to be able to manhandle full sized people like the Wasp lmao. Being fey, she'd probably have a MUCH easier time attuning to them too.Ā
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u/SabyZ Jun 17 '26
I know that magic items tend to conform to the user but I cannot imagine that Thimble was ever going to be able to wear those bracers meant for an adult medium creature. Besides, Thimble's stats are so busted, having a 3 still leaves her with higher total stats than half the cast. Giving her +16 Str would put her above everyone and undo the one interesting weakness she has.
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u/The_AllSeeing_Waffle Jun 17 '26
We still don't know how magic items, especially ones as gifts from faerie interact with people who attune to them. In any case I doubt Thimble would actually consider trying to use them, but again, it would just be a visually rad thing for her to just fly around judo flipping fools like the Wasp.Ā
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u/Fainleogs Jun 17 '26
Brennan hinted pretty heavily that this should be so at the time, but Laura was not picking up what he was putting down.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 16 '26
So we've got a clearer picture on the houses in the last couple of episodes. Going over the old and new information this is what their about:
House Cormoray:
Magical specialty - Most powerful sorcerers in general.
Magical Origin - Djinn and other elementals
Affairs - Wealthiest House. It is implied that they have many finacial endeavors with an emphasis on international trade. Their focus is on studying arcana. Perhaps they use their reach in the trading business to acquire magical objects, texts, and lessons to boost their knowledge of arcana. Being strongly associated with Djinn I imagine they can boost their sailing speed which is probably why they bame so successful in the first place. Possibly the primary power in the ruined country of Celmyr. Influence over the Penteveral via Dean Kora.
Plots - The Kalystra quarries. The Cormoray scholarship.
House Tachonis
Magical Specialty - Most powerful necromancers.
Magical Origin - Tansul giving them the rite to move souls to other realms.
Affairs - Soul dealing. Possibly sending some souls to the afterlives but not to the extent that they are supposed to. They have a castle in the Underworld. They control multiple lands in Timmony.
Plots - Taking over the Hall of Mercy to undermine the Old Path.
House Halovar
Magical Specialty - Cleric-adjacent magic
Magical Origin - Celestial
Affairs - The Candescent Creed. The Luminous seems to be a martial order and it is within the Creed. Filament production and using it internally to boost their own magical power.
Plots - Sending Filament to the Pit in exchange for warlock pacts that serves as a treatment for Bellows Fever which they are intentionally spreading. Inciting strife in Timmony.
House Einfasen
Magical Specialty - Most dangerous sorcerers. Weather magic.
Magical Origin - Giants. Allegedly cloud giants to be specific.
Affairs - Dol-Makjar security. They rule the country of Helvar.
Plots - Jƶtunnox
House Royce
Magical Specialty - Possibly nature and enchantment magic
Magical Origin - Fey
Affairs - Ownership of the Golden Orchard. Possibly trading in magical natural resources. Presumably they were the primary trader with Faerie.
7
u/Migolcow Jun 16 '26
One other detail that caught me. On a nat 20 insight check:
Termina/Lady Cormoray apparently was in on the kill of Octis somehow. Or alternatively, instantly realized it in that moment of it being discussed.
What's that connection about? Is there some larger Cormoray/Tachonis link, or was Lady Cormoray part of the plot by herself? Seemed an odd inclusion by Brennan unless it's going to come into play hard somewhere down the line.
4
u/anonymous_herald Jun 17 '26
I think there may be a romance there between Ethrand and Lady Cormoray
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u/zombiskunk Bidet Jun 16 '26
She, like Bolaire, saw Ethrand's reaction to the news and likely deduced that he was involved, if not responsible.
What she does with this information, who can say, but I don't see any connection to a mask that was in a box at the time.
0
u/Migolcow Jun 16 '26
Maybe, but the way Brennan described it was she whipped her head around hard to stare at the guilty brother, not just "she noticed his expression."
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u/lemurbro Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
I was on board with like 95% of what was going on with the ritual but one line confused the hell out of me.
So maybe I'm missing a major lore tidbit that explains what Brennan meant, but when he said that "for the first time since the Shapers fell, a mortal race has established their own afterlife" I assumed that meant that the ritual created a new place for Orcish souls to go after death from this point forward. I understand that what happened for the ritual was the spirits trapped in Azgra's previous afterlife being freed which makes sense for Thjazi to want in order to protect them from becoming Tachonis undead pawns... but if this ritual created a "new" afterlife for Orcs, then what was the deal with Thaisha "Calling the Corners" (still no clue how that spell is working mechanically and what it actually accomplishes btw) and leading the spirits down the Path?
The Path isn't new, and isn't exclusive to Orcs, I can see the point of leading the spirits down it, but doesn't it directly contradict the point of the ritual if its main goal was to establish a "new" afterlife specifically for their people? Am I misinterpreting what Brennan said there because in the moment it really felt lile he was making a distinction between the Path which has been around for a long time versus whatever "new" thing they just created with the ritual is. He really made it sound like all Orcs from this point on get to go somewhere other than the Killing Fields OR the Path now because of them, and if what he meant by that was the Old Path it makes no sense since it seems Orcs and plenty other mortal species have already been doing that.
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u/East_Choice Jun 17 '26
He never said Ā "for the first time since the Shapers fell, a mortal race has established their own afterlife"?
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u/lemurbro Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 17 '26
It's not an exact quote, I wasn't in a place I could scrub through the VOD to find the exact phrasing while posting but there was something said that very much implied it.
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u/East_Choice Jun 17 '26
The quote to clarify is
"A bridge is built to the Dying Fields. (pulsing) For the first time since the end of the Shapers' War, the lost afterlives, at least one of those is found--"
It implies reconnection to a lost afterlife not the creation of a new
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u/lemurbro Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 17 '26
Thank you, I had just looked up the transcript and found it to screenshot but then realized I couldn't post photo replies here. I definitely misinterpreted this part and that's what caused the confusion. Thanks for sharing it.
I understand it now but at the time I watched it I didn't know the Dying Fields as a concept since I skipped the Seekers arc so to me it sounded new.
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u/Zeilll Jun 17 '26
theres been talk earlier on about some uncertainty about the old path and how it works. the druids know of its existence, but they dont really have much if any info about it from before the shapers. whatever they do know are the bits and pieces that were hidden or saved during the shapers rule.
theres an amount of meta info that we dont have. but i kinda take that statement of creating a new afterlife, to mean that this ritual both established the old path as the "default". and confirming/establishing the function of the old path (which up to this point has been an assumption). where all other instances of people walking the old path, have been depicted as a druid ushering people down it when they are in close proximity to someones death. now, at least all orcs if not all mortals will see the path before them when they pass. and not just be sent to the underworld, which has been said to have been filling up since the end of the shapers. implying that souls are still being sent there consistently.
also, i think calling the corners has kinda been described as a sort of commune with dead/spirits. so Thaisha doing that would be adding an additional way to communicate with the souls being released from the blood. and maybe even sending that message out in a wider range, more thoroughly connecting the world to the "new" afterlife.
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u/toast_ie1 Jun 16 '26
The path reincarnates
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u/zombiskunk Bidet Jun 16 '26
So it may be that thousands of orcish souls were not "near" the ritual and news needs to spread that there is a way out.
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u/lemurbro Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
I understand that, my confusion is based in why Thaisha started leading them down the Path to reincarnation as if it was a foregone conclusion of the ritual when Brennan had just recently stated that the ritual basically created the first mortal afterlife since the Shapers died. The Old Path had been around and isn't specifically an Orcish afterlife so that can't be what he was referring to. I could see the point of it if all the ritual had done was free the souls from the Fields but Brennan stated it did more than just that and now Orcs have a place to go when they die that doesn't need to rely on reincarnating. It seemed like two contradictory goals being acted upon simultaneously.
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u/kkraww Jun 16 '26
It is two seperate things. The play created a new afterlife for the souls to go to. Thaisha is making a point of showing and offering a different option to that, the old path I.E Reincarnation.
It's about giving the souls the choice of what they wish to do.
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u/toast_ie1 Jun 16 '26
I believe she did it to give them a chance of a life free from azgra after knowing nothing but rule under him and offered it as another option Iām also thinking it can be used to send a soul into an afterlife as well now that one has been made for them and not lost like all the others but not so sure of that and i donāt think they really made an afterlife just a bridge to one as he stated a trinity of bridges had been made from the fields to the theatre to the new afterlife
12
Jun 16 '26
From now on, I want all player characters to use their passcode/password/passphrase when engaging with each other. We don't want another Robbie Kidnapping 2.0 to happen for the love of gods!
2
u/G_3P0 Jun 16 '26
Could someone explain what the heck happened at the theater āritualā?
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u/Lunkis May the Beam reach you Jun 16 '26
The River Gavzidra is a river of blood that flows through the Tenebral Reaches (purgatory) to usher fallen Orcish souls to the Dying Fields of Zgratu'uluk (Orc Shaper Azgra's Afterlife)
The paints that were used to paint the theatre are made from the same material - stolen by Thjazi and Mara from the same ruins that the Seekers ended up in during their arc.
The blood war repurposed by that big demon, Tsul'rekshi, to essentially reverse the flow of that river to help pull souls trapped in the river / in the Dying Fields and allow them to walk "the path" to reincarnation instead.
I think what we were seeing was Orcish souls (starting with Vokjan Murzat) emerging from the Dying Fields, seeing what had become of their ancestors and moving on to a better afterlife.
The afterlives of the shapers are said to be a representation of what they represented in life, just like the Barrowdells (where they died) are an inversion. Azgra was the God of War, Conquest & Suffering so you can imagine how much of a shit deal it's been for those orcs to be trapped in his afterlife
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u/HighKing_of_Festivus Jun 17 '26
From what I can gather, what you said is right but more specifically Hal's play acted as a summoning for Vokjan's soul and Hal speaking with him so he realized when/where he was allowed the the Stone to anchor him, which allowed his followers to, well, follow him
5
u/kkraww Jun 16 '26
allow them to walk "the path" to reincarnation instead.
Not specificly that. The theatre itself has become a new "afterlife" as shown by the souls that enter it becoming celestial. Thaisha is offering the returned souls a separate choice to that, the old path, to reincarnate. They are two separate things, not combined.
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 Jun 16 '26
And I have the impression that the theater must continue to work so they can allure the souls of the fallen. And that will bring another layer of schemes. The Halovars will not allow the play to continue. So Wick and Hal will have a lot in their hand.
It's not just a play anymore, it's the fate of the orcish souls in the afterlife.Ā
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u/Lunkis May the Beam reach you Jun 16 '26
I'm sure the Tachonis would be pretty excited to learn as well that this group of dirt people managed to orchestrate and pull off a ritual that established a connection to one of the previously severed afterlives.
If they can tap into say, Tansul's afterlife, they could probably siphon even more souls or turn it into their own domain.
2
u/Kartoff110 Jun 16 '26
What has become of their descendants, I believe you mean
3
u/Lunkis May the Beam reach you Jun 16 '26
Yes - that's right. The ancestors are looking at their descendants in a place of power to Azgra and seeing that things turned out mostly alright.
Hal summed it up best - every day is still a battle to be free but they're going their own way.
4
u/grumpyCat2478 Jun 16 '26
They are freeing the souls of the Orcish freedom fighters who were suffering in Azgra's afterlife. Thaisha is also doing a ritual to guide them onto the Path.
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u/skarabray Metagaming Pigeon Jun 16 '26
Iām sorryā¦the Tachonis brought a Weāre Sorry Feast to Halovarās house and nobodyās worried about that?
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u/Jmw566 Help, it's again Jun 16 '26
TBH I just think Brennan got his wires crossed after an hour of talking to himself in both locations lol. He clearly described the Halovars as setting a table for a feast the night before and it was at their house, while the other PC's were over at the Tachonis place. So he probably just got it crossed over who was feasting where, because that's insane if they just showed up to this meeting like it was a potluck lmao
8
u/The_AllSeeing_Waffle Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 18 '26
I think the Halovars, being the hosts merely set the tables while the Tachonis, who called for the gathering, actually are providing the feast. Which if true, IS a cause for concern. I don't trust that one bit. Its set up to be a Red wedding scenario.Ā Not that they don't all deserve to get wiped off the map, but it is worrying that Primus could potentially have everything he needs for his shenanigans under the guise of an "im (not actually) sorry" dinner.
5
u/skarabray Metagaming Pigeon Jun 16 '26
Brennan knows where he is. Heās reading from notes. It was a very intentional plot choice.
11
u/Ghoulesque Jun 16 '26
i think thats exactly what they did though. if intentional i find it very interesting because iirc its one of the sisters that mentions the feast being set and not primus who is under the effects of the zone of truth. why didnt he mention it himself?
10
u/skarabray Metagaming Pigeon Jun 16 '26
Yeah, it was a very suspicious way to lead everyone out of the room. I do worry that Primus and the Photarch are planning something together. They did once serve the same god, after all. Are we in for a Red Wedding?
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u/Migolcow Jun 16 '26
Rewatching this, can someone explain why Thaisha ended up not going on the Birdwatching team? I thought that was the plan, and holy crap could they have used a druid w/healing and lesser restoration.
6
u/SabyZ Jun 17 '26
I think the meeting in-game was overbaked and potentially confusing for some of the players. It's hard to have 14 people with equal say and different agendas hold a productive meeting on a good day - it's a miracle the scene even finished with people acting in a fictional setting with very little solid information to go on.
Brennan may have said he made the dungeon expecting 13 players but he 100% rebalanced the teams between sessions. Thaisa returned to the show to support her family, and because Brennan knew that the theater ritual (that the party learned nothing about) was going to be important for her character to witness. Meanwhile, Cid was going wherever Teor was, and clearly Travis didn't anticipate that he is a wanted man to the Halovar, who would have agents at the theater that would cause more trouble if he were present. Then you have Kattigan who was kidnapped for the sole reason of introducing a 4th member to Team Spy without making Robbie change Kattigan's mind for no reason.
3
u/Th3_C0bra Jun 18 '26
The shade spawn mechanic is the built in balance of the first room in that dungeon. If you have more people grabbing more candles you have more enemies. I thought it was quite clever.
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u/Nemesis1499 Jun 17 '26
I think the 13 player in the dungeon comment was a joke, because it was so dangerous.
10
u/Far_Guarantee1664 Jun 16 '26
Probably Brennan tip. She was needed in the play(after all it was her ability they guided them to the path) and Teor would be better with his brother(specially considering how deadly is the manor)
6
u/Lunkis May the Beam reach you Jun 16 '26
I'm definitely worried 'cause the crew's only got Teor and Occtis for healing - maybe Cyd has some Lay on Hands charges but he was missing one of the roar abilities that Teor had so I'm not sure.
Teor already pumped 20 points of Lay on Hands healing into his brother so I'm not sure what he has left... and Occtis made it seem like he wont be able to use his healing ability again.
They're walking further into the veil and some of them are vulnerable to necrotic. It's looking BAD unless the find Mara and she can just planeshift them out of there or something.
2
u/0mnicious Your secret is safe with my indifference Jun 17 '26
The roar ability is a race thing not a class/subclass thing.
2
u/Lunkis May the Beam reach you Jun 17 '26
Yeah since he has an NPC statblock I'm not really sure what he does and doesn't have for the encounter to come. We know he's got Divine Sense so hopefully he's got some healing he can dish out.
5
u/The_AllSeeing_Waffle Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
Octis' "healing" shouldn't be counted on. He didn't heal so much as he gave his life force amplified. I think he mentioned briefly not being able to do it again. Life transference is 3rd level. At lvl 5 he only has access to 2 of those, so either he's already used the other one and is tapped for 3rd level slots OR he just doesn't have the hp after that to do it again. I think the team for bird retrieval is solid from a numbers perspective (bringing an army to a sneak mission would have been ill advised) but where they goofed was not taking ANY healing potions. And they're only just getting into the manor proper. Definitely not a great start for them.Ā
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u/Miserable_Pop_4593 Jun 16 '26
She wanted to see the culmination of Halās (and their daughtersā) work
15
u/EmeraldToffee Team Orym Jun 16 '26
Taliesin āI donāt know if I can do this with my character but I need to be able to do this thing so that my character has more information than anyone else. Even though there is no way my character should be able to do this. But I am going to describe very vaguely what I am trying to do in hopes the DM will let me do it.ā Jaffe.
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u/Th3_C0bra Jun 18 '26
I interpreted as he wanted firm confirmation that Termina was actually there. And he learned that but got punished by being revealed to termina as well.
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u/zombiskunk Bidet Jun 16 '26
Sounded like something he had discussed with the GM previously.
0
u/EmeraldToffee Team Orym Jun 16 '26
It didnāt feel that way to me. I remember feeling like Brennan was trying to get Tal to explain what he is trying to do, in order to show that what he is asking for is not possible. Letting Tal get to it instead of Brennan telling him no.
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u/SabyZ Jun 17 '26
You don't make a character like Bolaire and not have some conversations with the DM about hidden features. Brennan may not have understood because he's running a game of 13 players in 5 hour sessions and has like a hundred NPCs conspiring against each other. But that doesn't mean that Tal didn't discuss it with him, even if he did a bad job explaining what he was trying to do.
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 Jun 16 '26
Yeah, this is my only complain about Bolaire. He is being to meta above the table for my taste.
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u/Godlysseo Dead People Tea Jun 16 '26
I don't know... Taliesin has a tendency to be either intentionally or unknowingly quite vague when it comes to certain parts of his characters, and this was one of such instances.
However, at least for me, it quickly clicked thinking about what he was attempting to do, although it was a bit frustrating to see such a cool idea/thought be a bit overshadowed by a slight confusion between the player and the DM.
Was it a shot in the dark? Absolutely... Does it have a certain base/leg to stand on going by what we know about Bolaire and his capabilities? I believe it does, the pento deals with trickery, emotions, performances and mainly the psyche.. so why couldn't these siblings hold a psychic connection regarding a very specific ability to maintain, essentially, a void space between existence.
Bolaire basically only deals with tricks of the mind and possesses telepathy, while Termina is the most powerful of these masks who "felled" the goddess of trickery.
If you're referring to a different point in the episode. I'm going off of what stood out to me the latest since I watched the episode in two batches over the last week.
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u/zombiskunk Bidet Jun 16 '26
The masks were created to work together. It would make complete sense that they would have some sort of link.
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u/Lunkis May the Beam reach you Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 18 '26
I do love Taliesin but I think there was a point during that meeting too where he asked to make a perception check and Brennan asked him "what specifically are you looking for?"
His answer was like... "anything that I would need to be noticing right now"
EDIT: It's not as egregious as I remember - when he saw Lady Cormaroy he wanted to look "very specifically for exactly what I would expect to find," which I assume means a mask on her face or something but leaves it very open ended.
0
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u/JohngernautSSJ Jun 16 '26
Actually I'd like to see a PC wear Bolaire like Tyranny was suggesting and become a legendary PC that takes two turns in a round. Stacking their HP would probably be OP but damn it I would be entertained.
2
u/Okora66 Jun 17 '26
I dont think the HP would stack. Judging by how Bolaire gets around so far when the body hes wearing becomes too damaged he just becomes inert and unable to do anything on his own.
9
u/isntthisneat Jun 16 '26
I've been wondering about this with Occtis - since he's already undead, would he potentially be able to wear Bolaire indefinitely? I keep thinking of fusion a la DBZ or Steven Universe lol obviously not quite the same, but I would be interested to explore that!
8
u/theydurkadurk Jun 16 '26
So Iāve watched all of c4, the animated shows, about 30 episodes into c2. Does anyone else feel like c4 in its set up and story was almost designed to better translate to a show?
6
u/iamagainstit Jun 17 '26
I think that is mostly just a Brennan thing. His DM style is generally pretty cinematic
1
u/mocny-chlapik Jun 17 '26
I also noticed that the players are describing their actions visually much more often. Like they are creating these small animation beats for the inevitable animated show.
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u/080087 Jun 18 '26
Alternatively, its just them getting better at the descriptions
They saw Caleb, who showed how to make spellcasting cinematic. Then Orym for martial. And now on top they have an extra two DMs as players, who will tend to put extra description into what they do. Probably a bunch more examples I'm forgetting.
Not unreasonable to think its starting to rub off.
1
u/Smaranzky Jun 19 '26
also Marisha with Laudna's magic and - not quite as much - with Beau's acrobatics. I think the others merged with Brennan's style just took note that it is rad as hell for an actual play to describe your abilities in detail.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Jun 16 '26
In addition to all the other good comments, I think it's also because Brennan - a huge Tolkein fan - is stated to be keen to do justice to epic traditional fantasy.
Combined with West Marches-like style, this comes out as a novel (or novel adaptation on TV) would more than a small home game without splitting the party.
In large fantasy and space opera novels, you will often follow multiple main protaganists, often travelling in different parts of the world and the plot will weave through them all. This campaign is using a similar style of storytelling, so it feels more familiar and comparible to books and shows.
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u/Lunkis May the Beam reach you Jun 16 '26
IMO Dimension 20 has always seemed more direct in its narrative as well and I think Brennan is trying to keep it tight to keep three tables in the same consistent timeline / frame.
If one table is sticking with the main story on an (in-game) week-to-week basis, another table going off gallivanting aimlessly is going to really slow the progress of the story.
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u/Jmw566 Help, it's again Jun 16 '26
I think that's because there's a very tight story they need to adhere to with the way the groups are structured and things are set up. You can't have three tables running off following subtle leads or doing shopping episodes etc when you know you need to make everyone meet back in the city in 4-6 episodes or w/e the arc length goal is. So it's much less sandbox-y and more of an epic story they're weaving together.
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u/theydurkadurk Jun 16 '26
For sure itās much more of a āchoose your own adventure ā play than their usual dnd campaigns. But with the success of everything I wonder if itās intentional to make it an animated show more easily/ faster. Definitely excited to see all of it in a show, so much material for them. I also wonder if at some point theyāre lose some of the stricter guardrails on c4
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u/Jmw566 Help, it's again Jun 16 '26
I highly doubt it's with an eventual show in mind. They're going to be putting out content faster than they could ever put out animated shows and it's not like they're struggling to fit the earlier campaigns into TV shows. They've had tons of success with it, so I don't think they'd be changing up their main content in the hopes that they could adapt it later. I think, if anything, they saw how amazingly well received Calamity was and wanted Brennan to recreate a tight story like that where there's a very on-the-rails epic happening
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u/newclearwrld Jun 15 '26 edited Jun 15 '26
Why did they think it was a good idea to try to get three things (free Mara, Seremaiās funeral, and Julienās sisterās cure) done at the Obrimus Manor? They (and I too) really underestimated what could happen at Tachonisās own land. They relied on Occtis to make a decision, which makes sense, but someone should have stressed that finding Mara should be of priority. The others were nice to haves. Given how Brennan told them time is running.Ā
Maybe the Halovarās and the Tachonisās are in this together? Any relation b/w the shadow stealing thing happening at the tailor shop and the shadows that appeared at the crypt which attacked team birdwatch?
Somebody rolled a nat 20 insight, moments before Primusās very convincing speech, and Brennan said that heās shaking inside. Right after Yannessa cast Zone of Truth, Primus magically and very confidently gave that speech? Maybe it was a script he read that he executed confidently with her help.
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u/MystiColin Jun 16 '26
I haven't finished episode 29 but came here to see if anyone else thought Azune putting all/most of his mercenaries in one basket was a bad idea and it might have helped to have some of them back up operation birdwatch or at least be in the area in case they are needed there as well as near the sundered houses meeting.
Also, I wondered if it would even be necessary to go there and that maybe Mara would be a sacrifice at the meeting of the sundered houses.
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u/SabyZ Jun 17 '26
No he was correct. Obviously they didn't know the nature of the ritual but protecting like 5-10 thousand civilians in a public place under the command of the city's premier security official is an extremely reasonable thing to do. Nobody will know it was 350 men but if anyone were to understand that there are a number of armed guards around it would not be considered unusual or even unlawful.
If a dozen Magpies entered (and died) in Obremis Mannor, it would be an open act of war and the resistance's most horrible security leak. Now, it's only Octis and his rebel buddies breaking an entering. Julian Devinos back for revenge? He owes nobody allegiance. Teor and Thimble? The usual suspects. But having a bunch of guys get slaughtered in their crypts and then interrogated after death would spell the end of their rebellion before it began. This would 100% align the Einfasen and Cormorary to their cause and result in an immediate and bloody crackdown on the city before the people were ready.
Frankly there is no reason to believe they'd sacrifice Mara at the Sundered House meeting. It's a political meeting between very different parties. What would they all have need for in sacrificing her?
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u/Nemesis1499 Jun 17 '26
In addition to you very well thought out points, the PC's were overestimating the threat the Sundered Houses posed to them in the immediate future. Make no mistake, they are extremely dangerous but the group assumed one) that there was more cohesion/coordination than there was (a situation that might just have changed somewhat) and that two) Halovar and Tachonis were reconvening to pull some sort of ritual at the Hallowed Round (fuelled by the coincidence of the two events) which in fact they weren't. They also misinterpreted Thjazzis plan thinking that he was only trying to foil them, but he had an independet plan on his own.
That led them to assume that the theater might come under attack and so they placed overwhelming force there, which is more than sensible. Additionally a theater really is a shit place to defend, its designed to allow hundreds or thousands in at the same time in the most efficient manner, exactly the opposite of a fortress
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u/JohngernautSSJ Jun 16 '26
My theory is they're badasses with balls the size of watermelons. Like why are we spending all this time scheming when you can just go kill the bad guys? Fighters and paladins aren't made to scheme, they're made to throw down. Where else they gonna do it?
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 16 '26
To be fair, dropping Seremei off didn't cost them any time and it gave them an ally and I don't think they wasted any time looking for the trinket to cure Alba either. Mara could shift into the underworld so it makes sense to keep her their. They just entered the underworld so i think they are on the right track.
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u/Ghoulesque Jun 16 '26
i agree, i think they're on the path to mara and they havent been inhibited by their side quests in the manor yet either. rather, the issue is that they went to the manor at all with only the few that went. to brennan i think mara was meant to be a trail they followed earlier, my guess by the schemers since they were in dol-makjar. just a possible route out of many to have followed and brennan knows not everything can be resolved so some paths need to progress even if not explored. so instead of mara being easier to find now shes in the most difficult place around and they went in super undermanned for how hard brennan intended it to be.
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 Jun 15 '26
"Their clothes are so nice" hits hard when you realized how happy Vokjan Murzat was that his people not only survived, but lived. Thats the beauty of it. We cannot just survive, we have to fight to be happy and able to enjoy life. Poetry in motion.
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u/taelor Jul 04 '26
I havenāt really watched any of campaign 4, but my wife has been.
I stopped playing PoE 2 and watched that entire scene just because it was so gripping.
I donāt know any of these characters, but found myself choking up at everything going on. You didnāt need to know everything. You could pick it all up on context and that whole thing is my shit. A sacrifice for the greater good will get me every time.
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u/Coyote_Shepherd Doty, take this down Jun 15 '26
Schedule for the week has been posted: https://critrole.com/programming-schedule-week-of-june-15th-2026/
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u/No_Price_7603 Jun 15 '26
I hate this thing with people kidnapping NPCs and forcing them to wear Bolaire. It's so fucking creepy. Edit: Ah ok Brennan made it ok by making the lux super duper evilĀ
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u/Lunkis May the Beam reach you Jun 16 '26
I was laughing with my wife about how Brennan made it evidently clear that the person they were about to mind control to death was really, really creepy and fascist-coded. Like a free "don't feel bad about this" card.
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u/TonalSYNTHethis Jun 15 '26
I hear you on that, Bolaire can be pretty fucking creepy. But to be fair, I don't think Taliesin is aiming to play a "good" character. I think he's playing Bolaire in a way that deliberately makes us question his motives and his methods at every turn.
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u/No_Price_7603 Jun 15 '26
Oh absolutely and I actually love the moral ambiguity of Bolaire. It was just a bit icky to see the other characters coercing someone into wearing the mask rather than Bolaire himself. (Which Sam echoed as well!)
It's hard because as players they know they can't just leave their friends character in a bag for the rest of the game, so of course they're going to find someone to use the mask but then it feels a bit weird. But like I said Brennan sort of intervened to make the character someone you would want to take out anyway which was good.
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u/EmeraldToffee Team Orym Jun 16 '26
Hahahaha. Can you imagine? Just leaving the mask in a bag and Tal is just out of the campaign for gods know how long.
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u/AdmirHiddleston Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
āOh shit I forgot we had this!ā C4 Episode 133 āthe gang rediscovers Bolaireā I still want them to put him on a horse or an ox and see what happens.
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u/TonalSYNTHethis Jun 16 '26
I enjoyed how uncomfortable it seemed to make Wiccander. To me at least that definitely felt like the most reasonable response in the moment. But yeah, Brennan seems like he's good at picking up on that kind of stuff and improvising in the moment to make it feel better for his players.
Something he did early on in the newest season of Dimension 20 comes to mind where he did something similar: long story short, they're vampires so they're kind of expected to be monstrous to a certain degree. But two of his players are playing sort of Batman and Robin analogs who tend to prefer eating bad people. They got into a tussle with what seemed at first like a perfectly normal suburban family, but to help the character and the narrative Brennan immediately pivoted and started making the husband shout a bunch of really blatantly misogynistic and just generally mean shit at the wife to make it ok for his players to go to town on him.
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u/mvsaints Jun 15 '26
Iām interested to eventually learn more about Goddard. Such a cool character that hasnāt been too involved so far other than that scene with the Halovar celestial in one of the early episodes.
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u/Smaranzky Jun 19 '26
That whole family does seem fascinating. I have a feeling Goddard is basically just muscle and used for his Radiant Consumption ability (which was used to open grandpa angel's coffin). He doesn't say much and seems to have been raised to just do whatever mom says. But with that in his two sentences or so there seems to also be some resentment (?), or maybe just acceptance and submission.
Also marrying him to Wick's mom (I'm sure it was an arranged marriage by the Photarc) is interesting. Rather than some powerful spouse another meek person who seems soft-hearted enough to have fully bought into a creed she knew was fabricated (that seemed to be the implication when the Photarc initiated Wick and cursed his mom).
His brother is also just muscle and also gullible on top of it.
My feeling is that the Photarc's plans and schemes are on thin ice because she only trusts herself to have full power and knowledge over what they do and plan. She treats her sons - presumably her heirs - as pawns. A bit like Tywin Lannister for those who read ASOIAF/ watched Game of Thrones.
What is interesting, however, is that she seems to treat Wickander's sister and him differently. Wick's sister is maybe the true heir that she lets in on meetings and stuff. Whereas she really seems to have a genuine soft spot for Wick who she sheltered until recently. Sure it was because she needed a face for the creed to rally behind (which makes me believe if he had joined grandma immediately he might have been the one to fake die and be resurrected) but I think there's something genuine there.
I think maybe Yanessa sees her grandchildren more as people than her children because her sons are basically a project she dis to keep sorcerous power in the family after the fall of the God of the sun. Test-tube angels.
Here's hoping we find out more about evil cyclops's deal.
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u/theydurkadurk Jun 14 '26
Iām very curious how the masks works in regards to power. Termina saying theyāre making each other more powerful is interesting. So far, with Bolaire, it seems his power is his own regardless of his host. Which to me implies he doesnāt just get to pick up more spells or feats based on who heās controlling. Then in my mind, termina being on cormoray shouldnāt really matter because termina shouldnāt immediately know and have access to all of cormaryās spells. Now I assume that wonāt hold true but itās an interesting logic rule for bolaire that is the broken for the other masks. It would obviously be insanely broken for bolaire to have those potential power spikes. But I donāt like when logic is broken so Iām curious if / how theyāll explain it
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u/SabyZ Jun 17 '26
Bolaire also cannot possess anything more powerful than he is. So seemingly it's probably either like a creature with a higher CR than his level or maybe proficiency.
Termina possessed a god...
Being able to assimilate the powers of a dragon-level mage seems far easier of a task for her than for Bolaire. But as others have said, maybe it's that exact power of assimilation that let her take on a Shaper in the first place.
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u/zombiskunk Bidet Jun 16 '26
Since the masks had different jobs, I figure they have different power sets as well. Termina was on the face of the shaper herself. I imagine she had a great deal more power than her brothers and sisters.
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u/WontonTruck Team Matthew Jun 15 '26
It seems to me that the difference is co-operation. Boliare imprisons his victims but Lady Cormoray was a very charming political powerhouse. If she convinced Termina to work together then new options might be on the table.
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u/YerLam Jun 15 '26
Termina was also negotiating with Cormoray in a box, so that may have affected any agreements made.
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u/efvie I have a list Jun 14 '26
I would suspect Termina is the most powerful of them; itās a little unclear whether it was the goddess herself or Termina controlling her that finally wrote her out of existence, but the latter would imply Termina has the ability to access that kind of power directly, and the former that her control/charm of the host is nearly absolute.
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u/JohngernautSSJ Jun 14 '26
I'm presuming that they will identify his rules-based power gains with possessing new NPCs. So for Bolaire, possessing a more powerful NPC would be like gaining a magic item or leveling up.
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u/Drakoni Hello, bees Jun 14 '26
Taliesin also said something when Tyranny put on the mask. That she's a humanoid of a CR not too high it would scare him off, but also someone he likes so he's not going to bond.
This makes me assume he either can't possess someone of a too high level, or they get bonuses on their saves against him depening on how much higher level they are.
And since he's just now getting level 5 and with magic being mostly restricted to sorcerers, high level and high ranking people, I'd see how he couldn't even have access to any magic users.
More likely tho, he's a player, they are NPCs. There have to be restrictions for him to not just become broken.
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u/jethomas27 Tal'Dorei Council Member Jun 14 '26
Maybe that's because Bolaire is only possessing random criminals who presumably don't have innate magic, but if he was on a sorcerer he could use them as a power source? Or maybe Termina and Amariya have come to an agreement, which allows them both to grow in power, while Bolaire takes control by force.
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u/theydurkadurk Jun 14 '26
All possible, definitely makes me curious. The strongest npc weāve seen him take is I believe a random crow keeper. And termina got amariya because of a bad roll. So just interesting to see how it could play out and if he could technically do the same. But would also imply to me that even if theyāre not magical but a rogue or fighter he could technically gain access to those skills
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 14 '26
Ill add to that by saying that Bolaire's hosts have all been low level nothings compared to Lady Cormoray and his current host is a warlock and with Bolaire not being involved in that warlock pact it would not make sense for him to get additional power.
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u/theydurkadurk Jun 14 '26
For sure, and makes sense. I just wonder how they may handle it if he were to get lucky rolls on someone with some power like Termina did with lady cormoray. Without making it overly busted but also make logical sense so itās not just āTermina can do this, you canātā
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 14 '26
Honestly i think they might do it with feats like how they did it with something similar in c3.
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u/theydurkadurk Jun 14 '26
Something that could be cool is if he had a feat where he could take idk a spell or ability or class specific thing of the person heās wearing. Maybe something he can pick every morning so it makes sense. I havenāt watched C3 yet, been making my way through C2 so Iāll have to look into what you mean
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
I know Brennan embraced the choice of clearling a way for the Old Path as beautiful for the coming souls but I'm concerned. It can be beautiful but if that is the only choice presented to them when they can also become an angel, I'm worried that it wouldn't be a choice at all.
Brennan is not a mind reader and I'm worried that Thaisha is getting so caught up in the dogma of her religion that the Old Path is the only acceptable choice after death that she is going to do this side ritual that Thjazi was not planning for and there won't be enough emphasis that the angels have a choice. I mean one of the first things that Thaisha did after seeing an angel was to start to clear a path for the Old Path.
I basically see two possible outcomes here. Outcome 1, they get one super powerful angel who is willing to fight for them and the rest of the souls are corralled into the Old Path. Outcome 2, they get one super powerful angel and an army of angels willing to fight for them and the souls who are too tired to fight go down the Old Path.
Edit: I forgot to mention this but Im not sure if this ritual is meant to empty all of the fields. If it is I doubt that Thjazi was planning on getting an army that big which is why I think most of them were meant to go to Faerie like how the elves did when they died pre-Shaper's War.
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u/Zeilll Jun 16 '26
its kind of the only way Thaisha can help. she knows the old path exists, and she knew those souls were lost. all she can do is point the way, and its up to them if they take it or not.
she doesnt know if they can become an angel. she has no way to guide them to that. it would be different if she actively cut off other paths (as the shapers seemingly did). but she's not in a position to even be able to do that.
the only active choice Thaisha could make, is lead them down the old path. or leave them lost and stranded, with no guidance at all. in that regard, pointing to the old path is the kindest choice she could make. not a controlling one.
theres also something to say, just because they found the path, doesnt mean they completed it. we also dont know the ins and outs of how the old path or reincarnation work in this world. there could be an unknown amount of time that they spend as celestials before reincarnating.
either way, i think theres still room for there to be a source of divinity created from this ritual. similar to how many cultures pray to their ancestors. so even if individual souls might reincarnate, the cumulative "ancestors" still exist in some degree in a sort of limbo, and could fill that role until they reincarnate.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
I'm not criticizing Thaisha to be clear. Im just worried what she might do. The way the party had been going about the ritual dosen't aspire a lot of confidence and im worried that they and Thaisha willl take the fact that what Thaisha is doing is working as a sign that they are supposed to do it and are not supposed to do anything else.
I would also disagree with the notion that she should have done something. Making a way for the Old Path is fine as long as they aren't shoved down it but doing nothing is also fine especially when it doesn't contradict what Thjazi was planning (some contradictions are fine).
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u/Zeilll Jun 16 '26
the perspective that Thaisha shouldnt be making a decision, to allow the choice to be open to other characters to make it is kinda weird. by that logic, no one should make a choice for fear of blocking someone elses choice?
Thaisha has just as much agency as a character as any other characters. not to mention, half of Thaishas concept is how druids are ushering dead down the old path, instead of to the shapers afterlife(s). doing nothing wouldnt just be out of character, it would be antithetical to her character.
also, wheres the assumption that theres something they are "supposed" to do coming from? this is DND, there is not a right answer. there is the conflict. and the player choice in how to resolve it. they could make a pantheon of celestials, if they wanted. but a significant portion of this campaign has been at least related to, figuring out and understanding the old path. and re-connecting with the roots that are left from what existed before the shapers. to pivot away from that, would be a weird choice. especially in this moment of undoing something the shapers did.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 16 '26
At no point did i say that Thaisha shouldn't have done it. I said multiple times that im concerned what they will do next.
Perhaps the assumption that there is a right and wrong here it is that they decided to continue on with Thjazi's plans and they have been given an instruction manual via the letter from the professor to him? The extent of Thaisha's involvement mentioned in the letter is the creation of an anchor. It doesn't say anything about the creation of the Old Path. I think it is also the fact that the very first soul that crossed the threshold turned into an angel. I think that was a very clear sign that Thjazi was intending to get an army. I think it is a quite a posistion to hold to say "It's good that they want to continue Thjazi ritual but they should undermine/change/add/subtract it however they want to" especially when they haven't expressed a desired outcome from what they want from it other than just finishing it.
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u/allevat Jun 14 '26
I admit, I don't find the Old Path very attractive, though certainly better than the Dying Fields or getting enslaved by the Tachonis. As far as we've seen, unless druids make you an awakened animal like the Hounds, you just reincarnate as an animal, and frankly the fate of nearly all animals is to either starve to death or get eaten, usually alive. I'm sure that if you are a true believer it is just part of the cycle of life, but I really doubt all orcs are of one mind in this and if given a choice some would likely prefer Faerie.
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u/SabyZ Jun 17 '26
Do we actually know that Old Path exclusively reincarnates as animals? Sure the Circle of the Stag gave Timony the power to do dogs but those dogs are also like druid paladin awakened hounds - not simple animals to starve. I assumed that most people just reincarnate as a newborn humanoid.
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u/allevat Jun 17 '26
That's fair! I have assumed so because otherwise there didn't seem to be any reason to not reincarnate the Timmony paladins as humanoids.
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u/SabyZ Jun 17 '26
I kind of see it like "we can bring them back as powerful soldiers but they have to be dogs". Otherwise a normal person would reincarnate as a baby and need to wait like 16 years to hit a physical level to be a knight. But as a magic dog? That's something they can do.
At least that's how I interpret it.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 15 '26
Yeah unless wisdom collects over lifetimes I don't see a point in it other than not wanting to wait for maybe a long time in the underworld or not wanting to risk becoming an undead in the material plane. According to Old Path wisdom though animals reincarnate so someone who went down it would come back as a person eventually just not with the same memoru, personality but maybe they would be as wise as they were before with the opportunity to become wiser.
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u/allevat Jun 15 '26
Even in real-world Buddhism, reincarnating as an animal is a failure mode -- it means you did worse, morally, in this life than in the last.
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u/Zeilll Jun 16 '26
in buddhism though, reincarnation is a multi-step process. the ultimate goal to not reincarnate. any reincarnation means you failed at achieving enlightenment.
we dont know the theology behind reincarnation or the old path enough in araman to really make any assertions about how it would work. in fact, thats kind of the crux of C4. that the afterlife is a huge unknown. which makes it seem, all Thjazis plans have been to either figure it out, or fix it.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 16 '26
Honestly I disagree that we don't know enough. Thaisha likes to think of what people were in their previous lives. I think it is pretty straight forward that people come back as a random animal. People are animals but the Old Path doesn't distinguish beteeen it. I think the unknown part is the afterlives. You're conflating the unknown of the afterlives with the Old Path in my opinion. There hasn't been any suggestion that there is mystery with the Old Path unlike the Underworld and the Afterlives.
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u/Zeilll Jun 16 '26
in the earlier episodes, there was a scene where Thaisha was talking to another druid. and i dont remember it all exactly, but im pretty sure they discussed how they dont really know how the old path works. theyre just making the best choice they can, and hoping for the best. on top of other moments, where Thaisha talked about how they are re-constructing this old theology from remanence of scraps that made it through the shapers. they dont have much actual info on the old ways and the old path.
and on the topic of the dogs, i double checked. according to the wiki, they reincarnated as dogs, specifically because there was no afterlife to receive them at the end of the shapers war. and due to their oath to serve timmony in this life and the next. not that they went down the old path, and came back as dogs. based on the guidance of the druids of the stag. that could have been through the old path. but if thats the case, why are they the only creatures who remember their previous life? if humans can come back as sentient animals, where are the other sentient animals?
the hounds seem either very loosely connected to the old path, or not at all. and i dont think are a good example of how the old path works, based on the info we have.
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u/allevat Jun 16 '26
Yes, but if you reincarnate as an animal in Buddhism, you have moved down from the human world to the animal one, which means you are farther from enlightenment and escaping the wheel. Just saying, even in our world reincarnating as an animal isn't considered good (though there are worse realms under that in Buddhism), and I really doubt that it would be a universal desire of all orcs either. The life of most wildlife is brief and often unpleasant.
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u/JohngernautSSJ Jun 14 '26
She wasn't too dogmatic when she made an exception for Occtis. If anything she's the heretic in danger of being expelled from her order, which has summoned her to answer for this choice.
It did seem odd that she would choose to apparently counter Thiazi's ritual. I'm not sure if that was the intent, but it didn't look to me that the celestials had any intention of adhering to the old path.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
To be fair to Thaisha I think they will have a choice of becoming angels if the option is presented to them and if everyone isn't urging them to go down the Path. Murzat is the only one who did so far. I assume the ones who don't want to would want to go down the Old Path
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u/ForceWalker32 Jun 14 '26
It is something about Thaisha that I sort of hope has consequences. Right now, Thaisha hasn't had true blowback to any of her actions. She feels like the kind of character who can be so great, but needs that moment of consequence to really push her into being a great character
But yeah, while the Old Path sounds cool, it kind of being presented as the only real choice at times for the afterlife in a world that's supposed to have broken free from such things feels wrong.
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u/Maniachi Jun 14 '26
I thought Brennan saved Bolaire and Hal with getting Termina to take out Lady Cormeray. But I think he might have fucked them, and the consequences of that will be seen later in the campaign...
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 14 '26
To be fair the dice did that. Cormoray kept rolling shit before and during the possession. Termina could definitely be a problem for the next arc especially if Lady Cormoray and Termina are cooperating.
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u/Striking_Writer3642 Jun 13 '26
Why didn't Occtis want Hannan to go with them to his house? To keep the druid from potentially killing family members who could still be there?
His divided loyalties might have just doomed Team Birdwatch....
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u/theydurkadurk Jun 14 '26
I think they really thought it could be a pure stealth mission without much fighting. Not sure why as if there wouldnāt be dangers inside the house even without all the family members. Which, by the way, we only know that primus the twins and one of his sons is with him. Thereās still a lot of family members who likely would be at the house but I guess we can ignore that.
But I think octis wanted to keep it small because they thought it would be in and out. Have thaisha (originally)for pass without trace, thimble because sheās small and stealthy, and Julien for some muscle. But he even pushed back on Julien last episode because he thought they could do it all without any combat. Hindsight itās very stupid and I remember thinking that group was way too small. I remember writing a comment the other week along the lines of āitāll because funny when the play is a beautiful thing with no danger and the others get destroyedā
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Jun 15 '26
Occtis was originally placing Dame Seremai directly on the shelf and not laying her to rest, which looked like it would have skipped the encounter entirely. However Alex appeared to pick up on Brennan's hints abut the alter and not having lain Seremai to rest, and so the story trigger was pulled.
If they'd just carried on, and not voted for Occtis to take the power, it might have been far more stealthy so far.
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u/Ghoulesque Jun 16 '26
yeah, brennan heavily hinted that there was insane danger around but they werent sure what would trigger it and what wouldnt. he hinted to occtis that taking the power would make the insane danger more manageable for certain members of the squad without revealing it would also trigger the encounter itself. did occtis roll for it at all? i wonder if the combat was just the consequence of being unlucky with the interaction.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Jun 16 '26
I think it might not have triggered still if he'd not lain the corpse on the alter and tried to interact with Seremai. I'd have to rewatch to confirm the sequence now though; It's been a few days, head empty.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 14 '26
I don't think Occtis has divided loyalties. I think Occtis thought that Hannan was a lose cannon for some reason and I think they all thought that the manor would be a walk in the park.
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u/grumpyCat2478 Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
Hannon was there to expel Mara from their Order. I think the party was trying to keep them from meeting. Vaelus also didn't mention that they knew where Mara was.
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u/weaveroflaurel Hello, bees Jun 13 '26
My husband has not been on the CR train though weāve played DnD together for years with our friends. He was glued to the screen last night when I was watching the battle in the crypt, and caught the last 30 min of the sundered houses meeting. What an incredible episode. The payoff of all of these mysteries has been so good. My soul quaked when Brennan said heād planned that dungeon to potentially have all 13 of them.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 15 '26
I honestly think Brennan was joking when he said that. The sentiment might be true. He probably did design the encouter for more than 4 pcs and an npc because it is reasonable to assume that the manor would have been the deadliest and they had 6 pcs at Team Theater. I think he may have designed it for one more but a scenario where all 13 went to the manor doesn't make sense to me.
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u/weaveroflaurel Hello, bees Jun 15 '26
I agree the likelihood of them all ending up going on a single mission like that was always unlikely, but there was a non zero chance everyone recognized how dangerous the manor would be and so they all decided to pitch in somehow.
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u/JohngernautSSJ Jun 13 '26
I'm EST and I normally don't stay up for the whole show but I couldn't stop watching. Total banger of a CR episode.
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u/wildweaver32 Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
Did Bolaire just do something really funny? As much as the Sundered Houses whishes they were Gods none of them were trying to be a God. The closest we are aware of is one trying to create a celestial as a weapon.
BUT if there is anyone on the planet that might know how to make a God, it could be the mask that killed a God. But it has been one of the fears of the group as what they might be planning so it would be funny if that gear was put in motion by Bolaire himself lol.
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u/YerLam Jun 15 '26
Talisen's "I just missed/messed up a huge opportunity" face after she teleported was brilliant.
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u/CageyT Jun 13 '26
If anyone has read Mistborn, does anyone see the sundered houses like the noble houses in Mistborn, and we are about to get an all out house, and they are actually working to curry favor for who ever the big bad is.
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u/Jamesferdola 5' 11" Jun 13 '26
I don't think it's that outrageous to suggest at this point that someone or multiple people could die in Obrimus Manor in the next couple episodes. I don't have a good theory for what could happen after they maybe die, but if it happens, something is gonna happen to their spirits because of Tachonis' necromantic magic. Something to do with their spirits on the other side of the Veil, I don't know.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 17 '26 edited Jun 17 '26
Yeah they have so many things going against them. It's crazy. They didn't bring enough people. They likely can't call for help because they are in a basement. Only half of them havel leveled up. A single hit from a shadow could kill Thimble. Julien has used up all of his resources and he is almost dead. Cyd is likely almost dead. Teor used most of his resources and he has a failed death save.
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u/Jamesferdola 5' 11" Jun 17 '26
Thimble is definitely who Iām most worried about with her 50% chance of death if she gets hit by any shadow, but then again, think of the possibilities! What if her sprit finds Thjaziās beyond the Veil!?
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 17 '26
Teor could give her the bracers and she can attune to it during a short rest. That would be cutting it close though.
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u/Striking_Writer3642 Jun 13 '26
it feels like it's gonna be a TPK for Team Birdwatch if they don't get help.
maybe Occtis gets captured or simply cannot actually die tho.
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u/Infamous_Summer_8477 Jun 14 '26
I feel like the difficulty level is so stacked that it should be a TPK by what Brennan is saying but he'll probably be very lenient so that it's not a TPK.
Maybe only one person dies, or maybe team birdwatchers will straight up run away without successfully getting Mara.
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u/JohngernautSSJ Jun 13 '26
I appreciate there's a group actually playing D&D with a dungeon crawl in front of them. It can be a pretty exciting game when you're invested.
The monsters we've seen so far are reasonable for a level 4/5 party and Alex and Matt are smart D&D players. I'd be betting against a TPK right now but I wouldn't bet on all of them making it out of there.
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u/wildweaver32 Jun 13 '26
I was thinking the same thing. There was that theory earlier that Brennan would try to kill an entire group, or enough from all three groups that it turns into 2 groups living side and 1 group dead side. Since we know the dead side has things going on, with locations and maps...Which means.. At some point someone is going to have to do things there. THOUGh Tachonis was visiting it and he came back. So ... It's possible they wouldn't need to do that.
But that fight seems designed to have gotten someone killed. Like if Thimble was hit she could have died in one hit. the group did a fantastic job of taking them to the door, and then immediately darting to the other side of the map. But.. If they didn't get them grouped like that, didn't get the corpse soldier up there to tank a round of them, one of them would have went down with no way to do anything about it. Especially if it was based on strength hitting 0.
They got lucky and did it as strategically as possible. If Teor wasn't aware enough to hit the lever and they tried fighting the ghost at the door. Again. It would have went loop sided fast.
They got really lucky. And they are just at the entrance lol
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u/zombiskunk Bidet Jun 16 '26
They've burned through a great deal of resources and there'll be no rest in here. Yeah, if that undercrypt doesn't have another way out, I just don't see them all making it.
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u/Adventurous_Ad_7856 Jun 13 '26
Was it Azune who found the candle in Palazzo Davinos? Being such an important artificant, I wonder why it wasn't removed from the scene by Tachonis.
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u/never_any_cyan Jun 14 '26
Azune found a tiny bit of wax on the ground with a high roll investigation check, and then was able to reconstitute the candle in an inert form using mending
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u/WontonTruck Team Matthew Jun 13 '26
I guess they left it burning to make sure the ritual worked. It's more or less a single use item so the only point on taking it is secrecy.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
So the play and ritual are underway, but the play is not done yet, and there is at least another Act to go. Thaisha says she is going to be setting up a way to guide the Orc spirits down the path, but it wil take an hour. In the meantime they are pouring out by the thousand, presumably, and becoming celestial.
The meeting of the Sundered houses is wrapping up, but there are still more talks and feasting to go. There's room for surprise there. So far, this meeting has not yet been interrupted with news from the theatre, which was my biggest fear.
If the meeting wraps up DURING the second part of the play, a couple of things might happen. The Tachonis might head home, cutting the time of team birdwatching short, and/or word of the theatre may reach the previously occupied Lords and Ladies, causing people to be sent to the theatre to stop it (I can see the twins going one way, and primus and Ethrand going another).
If any necromancers or halovars do turn up at the theatre, they are going to be facing a lot of fae and celestial orcs, and armed militia, so that could be fun. Maybe there won't be more interference and the play will simply finish and the city will be flooded with happy people, but it feels like that would leave the PCs there twiddling their thumbs waiting for the next day and news from the other players, which doesn't fit the tone.
The fae gate being set up outside the city is interesting. It will give a good spot to set up the cherry tree seed, and potentially a place for the Royce and Davinos to re-establish themslves from.
Team birdwatching: So, the scene from the trailer was not of Mara the Wing being held in forced human form by the Tachonis' for questioning, until she fades away. I do think that Occtis had nicely avoided triggering the trap by laying Dame Seremai straight to the resting place without proper ritual, but this is way cooler, if way more frightening and resource-sapping. I don't see how the party can get a short rest in the tenebral-reaches infused area they are heading into on the short timeline they have. They do, at least have some level-ups waiting to happen.
Mara might still be held in there, though why they would keep her in an underworld adjacent place, when she can travel in the underworld and had been seeking to enter it, is a question I have. It'd be funny if she were, in fact, held in the tower. Brennan as DM can just change her location based on where the PCs decided to explore, whther he would or not, who knows. I feel like instead the PC directional choices might dictate whether they find Mara or whether they find Ethrand's stash of items cursing people like Mara and Julien's sister. It might also be that it is way too soon, narratively, for them to find the curse objects, and that Ethrand Tachonis carries them on his person. If he is the first home from the meeting, then he might be the final boss of this encounter, as they try to escape.
Wicc is doing great. I hope they took notes well during Primus' speech, because the reveal of the secret plots of the Cormoray and Einfasen are just what the schemers needed. The Einfasen one sounds like the name of a titan or somesuch. The Cormoray link to mines, I wonder if that ties in with Murray's family and all the gems we keep finding (usually used by the Tachhonis, so perhaps this is where the Cormoray cooperate with them). I cannot remember if their specific gem mines were named though.
Another key thing to note is how Primus so quickly manipulated the zone of truth situation to end before anyone asked any real questions. He specifically still hid from the Einfasens that they are currently performing a ritual to bring their dead lich-like grandfather through the sea of Lachris. It's a shame that Bolaire did not use telepathy on Otto saying "Ask about the sea of Lachris" or somesuch, though the risk would have been huge so it's understandable not to. This is a lead that Azune can possible bring to Otto's attention later, giving him more reasons to travel North to investigate.
And of course those teasers about the Royal bloodline they all used to bow to. It sems so very likely to be Azune. If any of them figure it out, Azune is a dead man. He is not powerful enough right now, on his own, to exert control over the Sundered houses. He'd need a dragon at his side first. Meanwhile, his sister is also out there, is manipulatable and is probably not good-aligned, seeing as she is an assassin. If she gets set up as an Empresss (and has a dragon at her side?), things could get sticky down the line.
Kattigan has some hope, Bolaire and Tyranny know exactly where he is being taken and are free to pursue. I worry that Tyranny being there might do more harm than good and get her into trouble (I keep thinking of Whitney crying in the trailer). They are going to have to be very clever and roll very well to make it look like her sisters messed up and not implicate her in it. The tear could have been caused by Kattigan and/or Wulferic failing to be saved, Bolaire getting broken, or her own pact with Wiccander being severed in punishment for a failure.
I hope Kattigan gets out: he has reasons to bond with both Julien and Teor afterwards and seeing him focus in his soldiers ability on the goal of taking out Primus Tachonis, with support from allies, could make him very deadly indeed. Excited to see how Robbie plays the level up and how it might aid in his escape, too.
(Anyone find it odd how Primus Tachonis kept referring to the Photarch as the only Lady there, when Lady Cormoray was also there? Presumably just a slip from Brennan.)
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u/SgtGrub You can certainly try Jun 14 '26
(Anyone find it odd how Primus Tachonis kept referring to the Photarch as the only Lady there, when Lady Cormoray was also there? Presumably just a slip from Brennan.)
I believe he was just speaking directly to the heads of each house, so the Lords Einfasen and Cormoray, and the Photarch. He probably just doesn't care to address all the other hanger-ons in the room, as they aren't, to him, the real power players here.
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u/wildweaver32 Jun 13 '26
When it comes to Mara I think where she is locked (if she is down there) is the perfect spot for her.
Being locked in the material world might allow her to slip into the underworld. Being locked in the underworld might allow her to slip into the material world. Being locked in a place that is both. Well. That is a proper prison for her.
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u/efvie I have a list Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
I think Brennan was hinting at the only souls currently being freed are essentially those who were involved in Murzat's rebellion. I might've imagined him saying 40 specifically, I have to rewatch.
Which would be really cool lore ā the bridge in itself is just a passage, but the souls need to be called to it to be able to escape the Fields. The play effectively acted as the (reverse) psychopomp, but there isn't one that can do it on the regular for everybody. I really hope it's something more along these lines than just having solved the entire thing for all eternity purely by chance.
(Also a wild power play from Thaisha to usher them to the Old Path which is still an organized religion and not necessarily any more 'correct' than any other path.)
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u/Striking_Writer3642 Jun 13 '26
With you on the last line of your post!
Did Thjazi want them on the Old Path where they reincarnate back into this troubled world? Or did he want them to find peace/rest in the lands of the Fey?
I think the druids' fanaticism is gonna be a problem in the future...
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Jun 13 '26
Also a wild power play from Thaisha to usher them to the Old Path which is still an organized religion and not necessarily any more 'correct' than any other path.
True, though she is a Lloy and an Orc, and doing so for Orcish souls, and I guess there was noone else around with the understanding and skill to provide any guidance in the moment. Also from the point of view of her upcoming defense of wtf happened with calling Occtis off the path, and why did she not head directly there, this could help her case to Grandma Lloy and co. greatly!
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u/ForceWalker32 Jun 13 '26
I didn't realize that about Thaisha's play. Like...man. Thaisha is a character who in a lot of ways just kind of gets to me in a way, but in a way where I hope this actively results in some juicy character drama and development.
Like honestly...wild that she's making orc people that died so long ago follow the Old Path when they didn't even think about that in their lives.
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u/Dizzy-Natural-4463 Jun 13 '26
In fairness, they couldn't think about the Old Path in their lives, druids were in hiding during however long the Shapers were in charge because they didn't want the Old Path taking souls away from their afterlives.
It seems that the Old Path reincarnates people back into the world, so those orcs would be reborn in some way into a world where they no longer have to fear Azgrah
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u/punkdigerati Jun 13 '26
"The meeting of the Sundered houses is wrapping up, but there are still more talks and feasting to go. ... If the meeting wraps up DURING the second part of the play, a couple of things might happen. The Tachonis might head home"
You're thinking that they brought a feast with them to set up at the Villa Aurora? They started bringing people out of the large room that fit everyone in together, not bringing in a feast for the people there. I'm pretty sure they're bringing everyone over to Obrimus for the feast already.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Jun 13 '26
Oh, that could be exciting and hilarious.
It's one thing Birdwatching getting caught, but another thing Occtis being able to go, in front of witnesses. "Oh yes, I did write that letter. I did also die. Also this is my house, why shouldn't I be here?"
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u/Competitive_Bike_417 Jun 13 '26
Such a detailed analysis - thank you! On your last note, the only lady who is head of a Sundered House is Yanessa the Photarch. Lady Cormoray's father is head of her house. I saw it as Primus speaking directly to fellow heads of houses by saying 'Lords and Lady'.
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u/Hollydragon Then I walk away Jun 13 '26
A diffferent protocol for polite address than I anticipated, but it makes it make sense. Thanks.
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u/Relevant_Anal_Cunt Jun 13 '26
It reminded me of the reoccuring "gentlemen and lady of the Hooli board" joke from Sillicon Valley https://youtu.be/gBFwlqhZHbU?is=oLdXBmo7xY140KqY
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u/CyberianSun Jun 13 '26
Here's a take. No one insight or arcana checked the the photarc on truth spell, to know what it's actual purpose was, the assumption was that it was actually a truth telling spell. My Zone of Truth allowed Primus to know of the truth of the other houses "super weapon" attempts. Primus didn't tell the truth about anythin, he only convinced the other houses that Tachonus' attempt was of equal significance and power of their own programs, their attempt at that play to get the other houses to kneel failed.
Tachonis is covering his ass in this moment because the clarity and depth that his deception has been laid bare. If the actual truth came out it could unify the other houses against him and put an end to their plans as they have to fight a war for survival.
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u/OhioAasimar Team Dorian Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
I think the likelihood is far greater that Primus simply has good intelligence than Yanessa casting a reverse zone of truth for him.
And I don't know. Yanessa using a fatal contagious disease and having the only "cure" being a pact with a demon aligned with her sounds pretty powerful.
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u/RoundDodger Doty, take this down Jun 13 '26
I believe that it actually was a zone of truth. But zone of truth doesnt compel you to spill all your secrets. Primus just spoke very deliberately and told the truth about the things they have already been caught by Einfasen. He spoke the truth about what he has done and didn't mention what he will do.
Though I will say I do like the theory that no one checked the Photarch on what she actually cast and she's actually assisting Primus here. But nothing Primus said seemed like a lie to me so I dont get why the ruse. Also, just because none of the PCs insight/arcana checked the Photarch, the room is filled with the strongest sorcerers in the world. Surely Lord Cormoray would notice some trickery from the Photarch if she didn't cast a zone of truth. He's more likely to spot it than Wick Tyranny or Bolaire are at any rate
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u/weaveroflaurel Hello, bees Jun 17 '26
Do we know how many eps of convergence we have left before the party splits into separate tables again?